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Featured How come good Friday is only two days from Easter Sunday?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Andrew4jesus, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Then are you saying Yom HaBikkurim was on Saturday (16th) since Friday your 15th was a "Sabbath" day also? So he did not die with the lambs and He did not raise on Yom HaBikkurim?
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    My <<fatal flaw>>... Being that serious, let me have a thorough look what you say, it is...

    <<John states ... they LAID Him THERE, BECAUSE of the Jews' preparation, for the sepulchre was "nigh at hand.">>
    <<...the fact that the sepulchre was "nigh at hand.">>
    <<...difference a nearby sepulchre would make>>
    <<...THIS time frame was RIGHT before the Sabbath ... and they LAID Him in a tomb that was "nigh at hand">>
    <<...the simple fact that this Garden Sepulchre, was NIGH AT HAND to the crucifixion site.>>
    <<...Why would John mention the "nigh at hand" unless it had a bearing on getting Yeshua LAID in the tomb PRIOR to the Sabbath starting, as it was the preparation of the Jews>>

    Alright, my <<fatal flaw>> is exposed through John's mention in 19:42 of the clause, <<hoti engus ehn to mnehmeion>>, "because the tomb was near".

    Do you accept my analysis so far? I'm a bit tired and want to first take a nap, if you don't mind...
     
  3. ImAHebrew

    ImAHebrew Active Member Supporter

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    Shalom AFraizer, here is what I will give you. You have made a weak attempt to explain a contradiction that makes it appear Yeshua ate the supper BEFORE the Feast of the Passover. Now, I don't think we are going to get to answering this correctly until you admit there is a "contradiction" between John and the other Gospel writers. Anyway, I think this is another "chink" in your armor. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    As desperately as one may want it to be doesn't make it so. Jn 19:31 says "that Sabbath day was a megas day" not "that day of unleavened bread was a megas day."
    John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
    In Jn 7:23 Jesus is healing on the Sabbath and vs. 37 mentions the megas. The intervening verses do not mention any passage of days. Did you read the historical evidence provided by Gill on Jn 7:37.
    but notwithstanding the Jews make out this to be the greater day for them, since the seventy bullocks offered on the other seven days, were for the seventy nations of the world; but the one bullock, on the eighth day, was peculiarly for the people of Israel (t):
    (t) T[almud]. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2. Bemidbar Rabba, sect. 21. fol. 231. 1.
     
  5. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, that's what the scriptures are saying. You are having a very hard time grasping this because, as I've told you repeatedly, you are trying to date these physical events by your tradition or theology. It would be great if the death and resurrection lined up with your theological interpretation. But it doesn't. Nor does it have to. As I already pointed out, his fulfillment of things in the law is not contingent upon specific dates. We know from Hebrews that he entered the holy of holies by the sacrifice of himself, and made intercession for us. We know he was the scapegoat. But his death was most definitely not in the seventh month, nor on the tenth day of the month. He fulfilled the Day of Atonement just as readily as he fulfilled the Passover. The date is irrelevant to the theology. The theology is irrelevant to the date.

    The disciples made ready the passover. This is blatant scripture, and there is no alternate interpretation that can be made for it. Unless you are prepared to accept or declare a contradiction in the scriptures, the last supper was the passover. It therefore took place on the evening of the 14th as the 15th was about to start at sunset. And since he was crucified the next day, the crucifixion took place on the morning of the 15th.

    We can hash out the particulars if you like, but you have to first accept that three gospels put his crucifixion on the 15th, and John can be interpreted harmoniously with the Synoptics rather than contradictory, while the opposite can't be. You simply cannot interpret the Synoptics as portraying a 13th last supper and 14th crucifixion. There is no credible way to do so.
     
  6. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    On this, we will never be in agreement. I do not concede to a contradiction. They are telling the same story. If your position is that there is an actual contradiction, that's not something I can argue against, except to say that I disagree with your conclusion that the Bible contradicts. While I do acknowledge that there are human mistakes in the transmission of the scriptures over the centuries, I do still believe that the message, given by divine inspiration, remains untarnished and without contradiction.

    To solve the problem by concluding a contradiction is a chink in your armor my friend. You might want to dwell on the position you've chosen to take before committing to it too wholly.
     
  7. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Thank you. I though I was becoming senile.
     
  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    You said: "<<That next Day the 15th, the Feast of Unleavened Bread>>, "was great day of that sabbath ... since the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath was going on."

    What you have in quotes please provide the source, the scripture. Thanks
     
  9. ImAHebrew

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    Shalom Der Alter, are you trying to say Gill, or others, or yourself even, that the "megas" day in John 7:37 ALSO fell on the weekly Sabbath? I see where Gill says the eighth day (last day) was a greater day, but is that because it fell on the weekly Sabbath or because the day by itself could be a Great "megas" day? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Did you read what I posted from Gill, including the cites to the historical sources? I'm quite sure Gill stated very clearly why the 8th day was called a megas day and he did not even mention the Sabbath. You can read the entire quote in my [post #1385] on the previous page. But reading the passage, in John 7, as I stated, it appears, in that instance, that the particular feast day might have occurred on the Sabbath.
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-come-good-friday-is-only-two-days-from-easter-sunday.8004545/page-70#post-71281285#1414

    My <<fatal flaw>>... Being that serious, let me have a thorough look what you say, it is...


    <<John states ... they LAID Him THERE, BECAUSE of the Jews' preparation, for the sepulchre was "nigh at hand.">>

    <<...the fact that the sepulchre was "nigh at hand.">>

    <<...difference a nearby sepulchre would make>>

    <<...THIS time frame was RIGHT before the Sabbath ... and they LAID Him in a tomb that was "nigh at hand">>

    <<...the simple fact that this Garden Sepulchre, was NIGH AT HAND to the crucifixion site.>>

    <<...Why would John mention the "nigh at hand" unless it had a bearing on getting Yeshua LAID in the tomb PRIOR to the Sabbath starting, as it was the preparation of the Jews>>


    Alright, my <<fatal flaw>> is exposed through John's mention in 19:42 of the clause, <<hoti engus ehn to mnehmeion>>, "because the tomb was near".


    Do you accept my analysis so far? I'm a bit tired and want to first take a nap, if you don't mind...


    I’ll not at this time argue your using this ‘argument’, at all; but that’s for later.

    So…

    Incidence and meanings


    Figurative x13

    In Paul x5— of “word”, “men”x2, “herbs”, “Lord”

    In Hebrews x2— of “that which decayeth”, “salvation”

    In Revelation x2— of “time”

    In Gospels x3— of “summer”--“tribulation” Mk13:29; “Son of Man coming” Mt24:33; “kingdom” Lk21:30 cf. 19:11b ‘mellei’

    In Gospels x1— of “my time” Mt26:18


    Literal

    Of time—

    “summer” x3 Mt24:32 Mk13:28 Lk21:30

    “passover” x3 Jn2:13; 6:4; 11:55

    “tabernacles” Jn7:2


    Topographical relativity—

    “in Aenon near Salim” Jn3:23

    “country near wilderness” Jn11:54

    “Fair Havens near Crete and Lasea” Acts 27:8


    Geographical relativity—

    “he was near to Jerusalem” Lk19:11

    “Bethany near Jerusalem” Jn11:18

    “Lydda was near Joppa” Acts 9:38


    Relative Distance—

    “getting near the ship” Jn6:19

    “came near the place where they ate” Jn6:23

    “crucified near the city” Jn19:20

    “away from Jerusalem about a Sabbath day’s journey” Acts 1:12


    John 19:39-42, “Came Nicodemus who encountered him (Joseph) ‘At the First Night’ bearing an hundred pound weight of mixed myrrh and aloe. 40 They took therefore the body of Jesus and bound it in (more) sheets of linen with the spices as custom / ethics is with the Jews for to bury. Now there was in the place where He was crucified, a garden, and in the garden a new tomb wherein never yet anyone had been laid. There, therefore, because it was ready at hand, due to the preparation of the Jews, they laid Jesus.”


    The tomb was new and prepared, never before used and ready and near for immediate use.


    What crises can these circumstantial facts create for the equally real and realistic, and valid and historic, truth, <<that a whole day had transpired from when Yeshua died, until He was LAID in the sepulchre>>? None! In fact, John wrote this detailed record to show just how prefectly everything worked out according to God’s plan and predestination of his Eternal Purpose through Jesus Christ the Lamb of Sacrifice of the Passover-of-Yahweh.


    To summarise your in one paragraph six times repeated identical claim on one verse against me that you got to <<the bottom of just exactly WHEN Yeshua was buried>> with— Verbosity!
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    There is NO <<conflict between Matthew, Mark, and Luke's account versus the timeline of John's account.>> The <conflict> and conflicts are in your head and in tradition, the tradition of ignorance and inability ---in NO Scripture.
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    ONE Lamb that Passover of Yahweh died. Only He.
    The usual time Passover lambs were sacrificed on that Passover of Yahweh Darkness like the omen of death covered whole the land. Painful Darkness of hell from hell "from the sixth to the ninth hour", "the first day they ALWAYS, HAD TO, KILL the Passover, and ALWAYS, HAD TO, unleaven your houses and all the land." NO LIGHT no spark from the temple's altar, pierced the "thick darkness" of DARK SUBSTANCE denser than the heart of the earth in "That Selfsame Whole Day BONE-Day" "WHEN THEY KILLED THE PASSOVER"--The Passover of Yahweh Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the DARKNESS with the beginning of the world. "In the BEGINNING", "and darkness covered the deep", "the WORD, was!"
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    When do you say prayed Jesus his prayer in John 17?
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    No more books for me. For four years now? Only my lexicons and grammars and layman's old Cruden's. for reference work. My time is running out. I have my job. I must do it, no matter what. And am learning MORE THAN EVER.
    It is the Bible only therefore now for me, and but a very small fraction of it, and a very small fraction of the fraction. Because I no longer learn surveying, superficially, horizontally, but, by grace, vertically ... thankful.
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    No, this <problem> has never been solved. No one has ever solved it. Not Edersheim. Read his 'Life and Times'. If he claimed that he <<solved this problem>>, please tell me the pages. I still have access to the Library / libraries.
     
  17. ImAHebrew

    ImAHebrew Active Member Supporter

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    Shalom Der Alter, OK, let me try to open up a little here.

    For years, I have had traditional Friday to Sunday christians tell me that the reason John called THAT Sabbath a High Day "megas day" was because the Feast day and the Sabbath fell TOGETHER on the 7th day of the week. Now, even you think "it appears" that the feast day might have occurred on the Sabbath there in John 7. So here's the thing, I would like to have everyone try to get inside John's head, and reason how he was thinking.

    First, when he said, "In the last day, that great [day] of the feast" do we really think he was trying to indicate that this last day of the feast was falling on the weekly Sabbath, by calling it THAT "megas" [day]? I would think that John was indicating that this LAST day of the Feast was a "megas" [day] ALL on it's own, and it had NOTHING to do at all with the weekly Sabbath.

    And then we come to John 19:31. John tells us that Yeshua dies. Then he tells us that the Jews, because it was the preparation and the Sabbath was approaching, that they (the Jews) did not want the bodies to remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day. John then explains something to us, "for THAT Sabbath day was an high (megas) day." Now really try to get your head around how John was thinking. He tells us that the Jews do not want the bodies to remain on the cross on the Sabbath. Well, IF that Sabbath WAS the weekly Sabbath, then ALL he had to say was, "for that day was a Sabbath." Case closed! Do you see that? If THAT Sabbath WAS the weekly Sabbath, there would be NO reason to inform us that THAT Sabbath was a high (megas) day. Do you see? It is the ONLY reasonable option, that IF it was the weekly Sabbath, there would be no need at all to bring up or inform us about THAT Sabbath day BEING a high "megas" day. Does not this make sense Der Alter? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
     
  18. ImAHebrew

    ImAHebrew Active Member Supporter

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    Shalom Gerhard, yes, your "fatal flaw" in your thinking is that the "new tomb" in the Garden, because it was "ready at hand," due to the preparation of the Jews, they Laid Yeshua there. That "ready at hand," is YOUR "fatal flaw," because IF they had 24 hours to prepare Yeshua for burial, WHY need to be "ready at hand?" Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Are you even reading my posts or are you just sifting through trying to find some little something you can argue to support your assumptions/presuppositions? I posted this before but evidently you ignored it.
    John 7:2
    (2) Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand....
    John 7:23
    (23) If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?...
    John 7:37
    (37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    We know it is the feast of tabernacles, not ULB, vs. 2. Jesus was healing on the Sabbath and the Jews were upset, vs. 23. It was the last day of the feast John said "that great day" vs. 37. I don't see any passage of a day or days between vs. 23 and vs. 37. The feast day may have occurred on the Sabbath but it is not germane it was a great day whether it was a Sabbath or not.
    If you would actually read my posts I already said all this.
    Nope it doesn't make sense. Tilting at windmills trying to support the presupposition that 1st/7th ULB were always "a mega Sabbath." Neither 1st nor 7th ULB were considered a "great day" on their own, as tabernacles was. Already addressed from Gill.
    In 19:31 John may have been emphasizing the absolute necessity for removing the bodies before sundown. Not only was it the Sabbath but it was also the feast of ULB. From Gill's commentary.

    for that sabbath day was an high day; it was not only a sabbath, and a sabbath in the passover week, but it was the day in which all the people appeared and presented themselves before the Lord in the temple, and the sheaf of the first fruits was offered up; all which solemnities meeting together made it a very celebrated day: it is in the original text, "it was the great day of the sabbath"; which is the language of the Talmudists, and who say (d), נקרא שבת הגדול "is called the great sabbath", on account of the miracle or sign of the passover;'' and in the Jewish Liturgy (e) there is a collect for the "great sabbath": hence the Jews pretending a great concern lest that day should be polluted, though they made no conscience of shedding innocent blood,
    (d) Piske Tosephot Sabbat, art. 314.
    (e) Seder Tephillot, fol. 183. 2. &c. Ed. Basil
    From scripture. The necessity for removing bodies before sundown.
    Deuteronomy 21:22-23
    (22) And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
    (23) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God ; that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  20. ImAHebrew

    ImAHebrew Active Member Supporter

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    Shalom AFraizer, I disagree, I really feel we will be in agreement. Let's look one more time at John 13:1-2. You know I did let you slide a little with your explanation as to how it was "before the feast of the Passover," that they were eating the Last Supper. I didn't ask you about John 13:29. Why would some of the Disciples think Yeshua was telling Judas to go out and buy what was needed for the Feast? IF this gathering of Yeshua and His Disciples were truly BEFORE the feast of the Passover, then does it not make sense that the Disciples would be thinking Yeshua was sending Judas out to BUY what was needed for the upcoming Feast? Please explain. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
     
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