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Featured How come good Friday is only two days from Easter Sunday?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Andrew4jesus, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Funny that you should speak disdainfully about the historical sources I quoted yet rely on 20th century scholars. Which translations do you think are more reliable Hebrew scriptures translated by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars in the 225 BC LXX, pre-Christian era Targums and the 1917 Jewish Publication Society OT which I have quoted or 20th century scholars who provide no historical evidendence in support of their opinions?
    A scholars opinion without supporting data is no more cogent than yours or mine.
     
  2. ImAHebrew

    ImAHebrew Active Member Supporter

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    Shalom Der Alter, are you a 20th century scholar? Where do you fit into the scheme of scholars? Or are you just a regular old un-scholarly, non-expert interpreter of the Scriptures? So if you are not scholarly and an expert, what makes your interpretation of John 19:31 more valid than those other scholars that you so frequently defend. So there is no way the 1st Holy Day of Unleavened Bread, the day of setting aside for a convoking on THIS day, and RESTING from ALL of your regular work, on this High (megas) day, yes, according to your scholarly opinion, this day could never ever be considered as a Sabbath, as John so considered it? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have never presented myself as a scholar or an expert and I have never stated an opinion without credible, verifiable, historical evidence which I have posted in this thread more than once and which has been all but totally ignored.
    .....It is not my "interpretation" but the interpretation of the the sources I have cited e.g. 225 BC Septuagint, pre-Christian Targums, pre-Christian Talmud and the 1917 Jewish Publication Society OT translation. No, zero, none of these Jewish sources call 1st/7th ULB a Sabbath. But these historical facts contradict the two Sabbaths in passion week theory, so as I said, they are ignored.

    It is not a fact that John calls 1st ULB a Sabbath that is only an assumption to support the presupposition that there were two Sabbaths and two παρασκευή/preparation days in passion week. As I have shown repeatedly when God instituted the Feast of ULB He specifically stated that the work of preparation and cooking of food was permitted on these holy convocations. Thus they differ from the Sabbath where all work, including preparing and cooking of food was proscribed, on pain of death.
    .....Since the preparation/cooking of food was specifically permitted on the holy convocations of 1st/7th ULB they did not require and did not have a preparation day before the day of the feast.
    .....παρασκευή/Parasceue, translated "Preparation," was and is the Greek name of the day we call Friday. It only occurs 6 times in the NT, in the gospels, always associated with the crucifixion.

    .....There is another Greek word for prepare/preparation/make ready, ἑτοιμάζω/etoimazo it occurs 17 times in the NT. Generally when someone prepared or made ready something the word used is ἑτοιμάζω. But such general ἑτοιμάζω/preparation does not make a day a "Preparation" day. παρασκευή/Parasceue always refers to the sixth day, i.e. Friday, not to general preparations which might occur at any time, on any day.
     
  4. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Yes, I agree.
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    To be exact, no. Between when Jesus had died 3 p.m. till "after these thing...the Jews asked...since it had been the Preparation", and Joseph had the body received, it could well have been midnight already when the Passover BURIAL "started out" in earnest like it was once upon a time in Egypt when the chidren of Israel "started out" and the LORD "brought them out with a Mighty Hand".

    It could therefore have taken Joseph and Nicodemus less than 24 hours before 3 p.m. = "it was mid-afternoon"--'epephohsken' "the Sabbath (after sunset) nearing" Luke 23:54, "by the time the Jews' preparation started" John 19:42, "mid-afternoon"--'hespera'--"vespers"--"in the west" Exodus 16:6,8,12,13 Leviticus 23:5 Deuteronomy 16:6.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    Why would it not have <<helped that the tomb was "ready at hand">> the afternoon after, "due to the Jews' preparations" then having started and "the Sabbath was nearing" / "was at hand" / "was imminent"?
    Why would they hurry seeing they had almost the whole past daylight as well as almost the whole night before it TO DO "according to the Jews' ETHICS"-of-Law the PASSOVER-LAW, "TO, BURY" "that which remained" of the Passover of Yahweh Sacrifice, "the body of Jesus"?!

    WHY would not the grave be "ready at hand"? Though it thus was PROPHESIED, was "WRITTEN OF THE CHRIST", "How that it BEHOVED Him / was WORTHY of Him", that "He made his grave / PREPARED his grave / PREDESTINED his grave with the rich (and able and mighty) to be READY AT HAND in his death."
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    If it is not a <fact> for you, then what can be a <fact> for you when John wrote, "since it was the Preparation and the bodies would not stay on the crosses ON THE SABBATH, BECAUSE THE DAY WAS GREAT OF THAT SABBATH"? ---using the word "sabbath" TWICE to say that, that "day"--"the Preparation", was itself "on the sabbath", and, that "of that sabbath", "the day was great day-of-sabbath", namely, the passover-sabbath?!

    What more or what better do you want than what God decided is enough, that is, what God decided must be WRITTEN?!
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    No one argued 'παρασκευή/Parasceue' is not or was not <<"Preparation," ... the day we call Friday>>, the day which John called "the Preparation(s-day) of the Jews", the day Mark called "the Preparation Day WHICH IS the Fore-Sabbath".
    No one argued any of this.

    We argue against your false allegation <<It only occurs 6 times in the NT, in the gospels, always associated with the crucifixion>>...

    and with that said, your false allegation <<'Parasceue' ... only occurs 6 times in the NT>> as <<only ... 'Parasceue' ... Friday>> and therefore not also, 1 out of the 6 times, of <'Parasceue'> as "Paraskeueh TOU PASCHA" John 19:14, as makes it no difference it is called by another name, the Preparation, namely, "The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER" in contrast with "The Preparation WHICH IS THE FORE-SABBATH" or <Friday>.


    But far more important, with having said, <<'Parasceue' only occurs always associated with the crucifixion>>, you have underlined your main and eventually PURPOSED, FALSE allegation against the truth of the fact that IN NOT ONE INSTANCE <Parasceue...only>, <<occurs in the NT, in the gospels>>, is it associated with the occurrence of the crucifixion itself! ONLY in John 19:14 in the instance of “Paraskeueh tou Pascha”.

    How many years MORE, inter alia alias der Alter, are you going to persist with this?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    'Hetoimadzoh' is not what is discoursed about. It is irrelevant.

    What is relevant is the truth or falsity of your claims, (1, your claim that, ostensibly, <<παρασκευή/Parasceue always refers to the sixth day, i.e. Friday>>, and (2, your covert false claim, that <<παρασκευή/Parasceue...refers...not to...preparations which might occur...on>> ONE SPECIFIC DAY, which "was the Preparation OF THE PASSOVER" on the day of Abib 14 specifically <<associated with>> the Crucifixion in John 19:42, which indisputably was the SAME day that began in John 13:1 "the day BEFORE the Feast of Passover"--, before the Feast which would follow on Abib 15, John 18:28; 19:31.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  10. Jan001

    Jan001 Newbie Supporter

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    Timothy was circumcised by Paul because Paul wanted to please/appease the Jews.

    There was no Christian legal reason that Timothy needed to be circumcised. Timothy's mother was not a practicing Jew when he was born. His mother and father were Christians. Paul circumcised Timothy in order for him to be able to be allowed in the company of the Jews who were not Christians.

    1 Corinthians 7:18
    Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. rsv
    Perhaps we will "talk" again on another thread in the future. :)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    It most certainly is relevant. If a NT writer was referring to some ordinary everyday preparation/making ready etc. he used the word ἑτοιμάζω/etoimazo not παρασκευή/parasceue. Parasceue is never used to refer to ordinary, everyday preparations. It only ever refers to the sixth day of the week, i.e. Friday. The definition of parasceue from BDB. This is not some online amateur speculating. This lexicon represents about 90 years of Greek scholarship. The historical sources the scholars used to determine the meaning of words highlighted in blue.
    Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker [BAGD] Lexicon of New Testament Greek.
    παρασκευή paraskeue, h`", hJ ( trag. , Hdt. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , Ep. Arist. , Philo , Joseph. ) lit. preparation ( Polyaenus 7, 21, 6 tou` deivpnou ; 7, 27, 3 polevmou ), in our lit. only of a definite day, as the day of preparation for a festival; acc. to Jewish usage ( Jos. , Ant. 16, 163; Synes. , Ep. 4 p. 161 D it was Friday, on which day everything had to be prepared for the Sabbath, when no work was permitted Mt 27:62 (CCTorrey, ZAW 65, ’53, 242= JBL 50, ’31, 234 n. 3, ‘sunset’. Against Torrey, SZeitlin, JBL 51, ’32, 263-71); Mk 15:42 ; J 19:31[color] . hJmevra paraskeuh`" Lk 23:54 ( v.l. hJm. prosabbavtou, cf. Mk 15:42 ). paraskeuh; tw`n jIoudaivwn J 19:42 . paraskeuh; tou` pavsca day of preparation for the Passover (or Friday of Passover Week ) vs. 1 4. For the Christians as well paraskeuhv served to designate the sixth day of the week (ESchürer, ZNW 6, ’05, 10; 11 f ) Friday MPol 7:1, and so in Mod. Gk. For Christians it is a fast day, as the day of Jesus’ death D 8:1.— M-M. B. 1008.*

    BAGD Lexicon online
    [quote]What is relevant is the truth or falsity of your claims, (1, your claim that, ostensibly, <<παρασκευή/Parasceue always refers to the sixth day, i.e. Friday>>, and (2, your covert false claim, that <<παρασκευή/Parasceue...refers...not to...preparations which might occur...on>> ONE SPECIFIC DAY, which "was the Preparation OF THE PASSOVER" on the day of Abib 14 specifically <<associated with>> the Crucifixion in John 19:42, which indisputably was the SAME day that began in John 13:1 "the day BEFORE the Feast of Passover"--, before the Feast which would follow on Abib 15, John 18:28; 19:31.[/QUOTE]
    An accusation is not proof. I'm could not care less about 14/15 Abib etc. If you have 4 people discussing which day was 14/15 Abib in passion week you will have 5 opinions. And all with reasonably sounding scriptural arguments.
    --Justin [A.D. 110-165.] First Apology Chap. LXVII
    But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
    --Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] [student of Polycarp a student of John] Against Heresies. Chap XIV
    6. And for this reason did Moses declare that man was formed on the sixth day; and then, again, according to arrangement, it was on the sixth day, which is the preparation, that the last man appeared, for the regeneration of the first, Of this arrangement, both the beginning and the end were formed at that sixth hour, at which He was nailed to the tree.
     
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  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You quite evidently did not understand my post. You only addressed one sentence out-of-context. If you want a response go reread my post, including all the context, then post your argument.
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    Denied. In Exodus 16:5 ἑτοιμάζω is used for <<general preparations which>> actually <occurred> on the Sixth Day-- <Friday>.
    In Exodus 15:16,17 ἑτοιμάζω is used for <<general preparations which>> actually <occurred> on the Sixth and Seventh Days at the exodus passover, "Till thy people pass over, o LORD...bring them in and plant them in the mountain of your inheritance* in thy prepared habitation" --"grave ready at hand". *sanctuary / cleft / grave "in the mountain of thine inheritance" ['nachalach'--'divide / possession made / left to dwell / rest / lie down in quiet" ['nachath'].

    <<παρασκευή/Parasceue always refers ... not to general preparations>> --
    Denied. In 1Samuel 24:4 Saul "went in to make preparation" to "cover his feet". In Isaiah 26:7 "the Way of The Righteous is prepared." And many more.
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    There is a little mistake in this paragraph, or, Irenaeus was not exactly a man for small detail.
    So, who would blame any who do not accept Irenaeus for Bible or Bible authority?
     
  15. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I like ready the earliest church fathers of the Ante-Nicene. Their "hearsay" would be the most accurate.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  16. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    He certainly lived during the time when information was the closest to the truth on such matters of interpretation.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    ...which tells the whole story. <<This lexicon represents about 90 years of Greek scholarship. The historical sources the scholars used to determine the meaning of words>> exactly! More specific, of 'Christian' Greek scholarship by truly great scholars, no doubt, nevertheless scholars who were so <<used to determine the meaning of words>> TO THEIR 'Christianity'.

    Proof: Bauer's (and the other two who actually only abridged Bauer's work) referring to "OUR literature" in order to be understood why he gave to words in 'Christian exceptions', meanings UNPRECEDENTED in, and AGAINST, the etymological and real Greek and Biblical meanings.

    Big men admired and respected by myself, are not therefore God's Voice or Word. And no one can force me to bow the knee before the greatest of them, while it is true that I have through my life in all my writings, shown these men of God their due respect and sang their earned praises, unlike many of their peers.

    So, please bring the Scriptures to the table, that we can TALK BIBLE!
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    Luther said of the 'church fathers' that using their writings for edification is like straining milk for use through coal sacks.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You are holding Luther up as a "hero?" What makes his opinion any more relevant than some guy standing on a box on a street corner caterwauling about gloom and doom?
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    An accusation is not proof. I'm could not care less about 14/15 Abib etc. If you have 4 people discussing which day was 14/15 Abib in passion week you will have 5 opinions. And all with reasonably sounding scriptural arguments.

    --Justin [A.D. 110-165.] First Apology Chap. LXVII
    But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
    --Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] [student of Polycarp a student of John] Against Heresies. Chap XIV
    6. And for this reason did Moses declare that man was formed on the sixth day; and then, again, according to arrangement, it was on the sixth day, which is the preparation, that the last man appeared, for the regeneration of the first, Of this arrangement, both the beginning and the end were formed at that sixth hour, at which He was nailed to the tree.
    The entire Bible could be called "hearsay" Moses and the prophets telling us what God "said." Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc. telling us what Jesus "said." etc. I don't think I want to go there.
     
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