How Christ completed our salvation.

[gwyyn]

Just to throw my 2 cents in

I agree tooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Auntie]

The Bible, and therefore GOD, agrees with Mandy too!

Thanks Mandy!

 

[davo]

You guys may want to consider the Eschology forum -I'm sure you could understand things there -this area may be a waste of your time -Just a Thought

davo

 

[jenlu]

Mandy...

I am not a preterist...but suffice it to say, I had been a dispensationalist for 20 years and I must say I disagree with you...there is much less sense "in the light" with dispensationalists...Just use the verse you quoted me...why would it be so important to tell the Ephesians what he told them...

You come back with the "in the light" line but didn't refute anything I said...with or without scripture...you know why...because it makes sense...

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Mandy


I did.

Scripture does seem to agree with you on that.

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by GTX
[automated tone] You guys have your time frames completely wrong and do not have a grip.[/automated tone]

Well then let me ask you this question.

Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ. Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.

The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguish between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64)

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70
The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguish between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64)

G'day Mani You are of course correct -there was no splitting asunder the coming of the Lord -vengeance i.e., judgment and deliverance i.e., salvation always went 'hand-in-glove,' just have a look at Lukes account of Peter quoting the prophet Joel:

Acts 2:16 But this IS that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

[salvation/deliverance]
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

[judgment/vengeance]
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

[salvation/deliverance]
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


This time period according to Peter [inspired and filled with the Holy Ghost] was the last days. God's visitation was two-fold, this was THE timeframe from Pentecost AD30 to Holocaust AD70 -salvation and judgment outworking in their generation, the "this generation" that Jesus prophesied. And yet that perverse and crooked generation would not turn and be saved:

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace![salvation] but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;[judgment] because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

We also have another example of the two-fold visitation of God pictured in Exodus chapter 14 where the Angel of God [Christ] separated the camp of Israel from the camp of the Egyptians -bringing deliverance = salvation to one and vengeance = judgment on the other:

Ex 14:20 So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.

Ex 14:27 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and when the morning appeared, the sea returned to its full depth, while the Egyptians were fleeing into it. So the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. [vengeance/judgment]

Ex 14:30 So the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. [deliverance/salvation]

Can you see the biblical patterns of deliverance and vengeance -salvation to those who will to Him, and judgment upon those who won't.

Christ's Covenant changing Parousia in AD70 brought judgment on the Law, Sin and Death, bringing Life eternal and a completed and perfected salvation! The New Age, The New World Order, The One World Government in Christ arrived -the "age to come" had begun.

davo

 

[Back To The Future]

I get it!! I have been reading and reading these past few days. YOu are so right. Our salvation was not complete at the cross but at 70 AD with the second coming of Christ.

The Apostles did not say they had salvation yet, but that their salvation was nearer than they believed. Romans 13:11

Also, They also said they shall be heirs of salvation, (this was in the future) Hebrews 1:14.

And with Paul in 1 Peter 9-10, salvation was in the future to him. Recieving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that SHOULD COME unto you.

During the first century, even the belivers in Christ knew that salvation was somthing that SHOULD come.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for him SHALL HE APPEAR THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation.

Revelation revealed what was to happen in the future to those living at the time It was written. Rev. 12:10 says, that I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is come salvation and strength and the KINGDOM of our GOD...
There is no doubt in my mind that the apostles were looking to the future for their salvation. THey knew it would happen when Christ Returned. He returned in 70 AD and all was finished then.

This really hit me hard. This means that if you don't believe that Christ came back in 70 AD and fulfilled all things, than your salvation is not complete yet. I don't know about any of you others (well some of you I do) But I am so excited. My salvation is complete. I AM A CHRISTIAN. MY LORD DID EVERYTHING HE SAID HE WOULD DO!!
YEAH
Blessings
Nancy

 

[jenlu]

Whooooooa Nancy....

I'm glad you're excited and this is not to damper it at all...but (if you are a Christian) your salvation was complete before your revelation...ya just didn't KNOW it...don't make the mistake of questioning others salvation because they don't agree with you...

Think of it like this...say you joined a club...and for years you just got mailings and such forth about acitvities and events that would be happening and you were invited...at one of these events you are talking to someone and he told you about the free dinner you get a such and such a restaraunt every month because you are a member... You've never been to the restaraunt, but you were still a part of the club...you just didn't know about the restaraunt...so all Christians enjoy the complete salvation whether they know it or not...in my opinion of course...

 

[Back To The Future]

I am not questioning anyones Salvation. But what about those that question mine? Jenlu, how do you feel that I am not allowed in the Eschatology section because I am a preterist?

Anyway, that is off the subject. Thanks for your post. I still am excited because the more I learn from Preterism, the more I have been able to understand for myself all those things about the Bible, past, and present that never seemed to click with me.

Blessings
Nancy

 

[davo]

Excellent post Nancy, and of course you are not denying the reality of anyone's salvation we have in Christ -just pointing out the logical implications of faulty futurism.

Your reference to Heb 1:14 [amongst others] is a good one to check out. Young's Literal Translation reflects the Greek well, showing the "nearness" of their salvation:

Hebrews 1:14 are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

The words "about to" are the one Greek word ìåëëù [mello] and means exactly that -[to be about to, on the point or verge of].

Again ìåëëù [mello]:

Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

In both verses the greek is in the present tense showing the ensuing reality of what is right on their doorstep:

James 5:8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

It makes an interesting word study -as there is more.

davo

 

[Shaggy]

Faulty futurism?

Rogusturdrefopsa! Sound familiar? You guys need to become familiar with this concept.

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Shaggy
Faulty futurism?
Rogusturdrefopsa! Sound familiar? You guys need to become familiar with this concept.

Sounds like you probably know all about it

davo

 

[Back To The Future]

Thanks Davo,
I quess I was so excited when I figured out what I figured out that I wondered if someone would think I was challenging their salvation. That wasn't my point.

I tend to write faster than what I am really thinking.

What went off in my brain was, that the apostles were looking and waiting to the future for their salvation. After the Crucifiction. Some of the New Testament books were written after the crucifition. IS that correct?
Therefore, some of the verses that refer to waiting for their redemption and so forth were recorded again after the crucifiction. (if I am getting people lost here, sorry)

So if Jesus hasn't come back yet like some people still believe. Then how and when was there salvation Complete?

I am not, let me repeat, not saying someone is not saved.
Nancy

 

[Shaggy]

Nancy, salvation will be complete when Christ returns for his bride and claims his Kingdom, I hope that clears thing up a little.

 

[Shaggy]

Again ìåëëù [mello]:

Jumping to conclusions on the words literal meaning, your time frame is off.

 

[davo]

Yes Nancy -the entire NT was written after the crucifixion

 

[Shaggy]

Excellent observation davo! Now lets clear up the faulty Transmillenium speculation theory.

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Shaggy
Excellent observation davo! Now lets clear up the faulty Transmillenium speculation theory.

Originally posted by Shaggy
Faulty futurism?
Rogusturdrefopsa! Sound familiar? You guys need to become familiar with this concept

Originally posted by Shaggy
Jumping to conclusions on the words literal meaning, your time frame is off.

Originally posted by Shaggy
Do you guys realize Christ hasn't returned yet?

Originally posted by Shaggy
It looks like that is misinterpreted, You guys are confusing! Do you deny that Jesus is Returning? Even after all the scripture available to you?

Originally posted by Shaggy
That just confirms that your confused.

Originally posted by Shaggy
Can I interest you in the truth, so that you may rejoice at Christs coming?

One thing's for certain -no one is going to get confused with all the scriptures you use

*SLOGAN CENTRAL* is over in the eschatology forum -you'll fit right in over there.

davo

 

[aggie03]

Originally posted by Back To The Future
Thanks Davo,
I quess I was so excited when I figured out what I figured out that I wondered if someone would think I was challenging their salvation. That wasn't my point.

I tend to write faster than what I am really thinking.

What went off in my brain was, that the apostles were looking and waiting to the future for their salvation. After the Crucifiction. Some of the New Testament books were written after the crucifition. IS that correct?
Therefore, some of the verses that refer to waiting for their redemption and so forth were recorded again after the crucifiction. (if I am getting people lost here, sorry)

So if Jesus hasn't come back yet like some people still believe. Then how and when was there salvation Complete?

I am not, let me repeat, not saying someone is not saved.
Nancy

I think that our salvation was completed when Christ was crucififed on the cross - I think that to say anything would almost nullify the blood of Christ! Why would He exclaim it is finished on the cross if not referring to this? Why would He be presented as a pure and perfect sacrifice to cleanse the sins of all who would believe if this wasn't when our salvation was sealed? Why would the apostles teach this if it weren't true? Why would the word of God which is the truth confirm it?

As far as Christ coming again to end the world, or his second coming in 70 AD - I'm not so sure about either one, I would need to see some scripture to back up those claims, not just the verbage of argumentation. As far as I can tell from what I have read in the Bible, Christ did return, three days after he died - and the only time that we'll see Him again is when we die and stand before Him in judgement.