How Christ became superfluous

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

Redwolf said:
Nothing, and I mean nothing your church has to offer by way of explanations is acceptable to this Prot.

Yawn

So what's the point? Oh yeah, you disagree with our Church. Yadda yadda. Same old broken record.

Here's an idea, if you don't like the Catholic Church, you don't have to bother posting about her. You can just walk along your merry old way and find something more constructive to do with your time.

Pax Tecum,

John

Jesus Is Real · Apr 12, 2006

JCrawf said:
Yawn

So what's the point? Oh yeah, you disagree with our Church. Yadda yadda. Same old broken record.

Here's an idea, if you don't like the Catholic Church, you don't have to bother posting nonsense about her just to bolster your ego. You can just walk along your merry old way and find something more constructive to do with your time.

Pax Tecum,

John

A bit sarcastic isn't it, friend?
Do you know that when we choose to be this way that we are worshipping another god who isn't Our Lord?

fyi~

Put that sarcasm to death, friend.
Romans 8:13-14

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

Ignorance is no excuse, as ignorance of the law is not excuse.

If one considers what St. Pauls was saying, there really isn't any excuse because gentiles know what is expected of them morally under the natural law, and Jews were taught the Law through moses. In both instances, what is expected of a person regarding the law, whether by natural experience or by divine revelation is present. That is why there is no excuse for not knowing the law, for can know by conscience or actual knowledge whether something is right or wrong. Adam and Even knew it, and yet they were not given the Law, for the Law was not introduced until Moses. Therefore, From Adam until Moses, the law was there naturally.

There are not many people left on this planet who have not heard of the Christ.

There's probably at least half a billion left on the planet who are not Christian.

It is extremely arrogant to proclaim that not knowing the Gospel of Christ is ok.

It would seem to me more arrogant to lay claim that you are assured that nearly half a billion of the world's population is going to Hell because they haven't read the Bible. Can you honestly say you know the mind of God on this matter? As far as I know, those not knowing Christ will be judged, but we don't know for certain what their final fate will be - nor do we know ours with absolute certainty. To proclaim that we do is real arrogance.

As for the human conscience? You can depend on it that it is not dependable.

Yet, God still calls us sinners, despite how dispicable you see humanity. I'm sorry that you hate your fellow humans, especially that you would want to claim those you know nothing about the hellfire. God knows the heart, you don't.

Pax Tecum,

John

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

Jesus Is Real said:
Do you know that when we choose to be this way that we are worshipping another god who isn't Our Lord?

Jesus used hyperbole. That was pretty sarcastic. Are you saying Jesus sinned and worshiped another God?

Pax Tecum,

John

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

Redwolf said:
John 3:16

Whosoever avails himself/herself of the saving grace of our Lord .... is saved. And no one else.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17)

Christ did not come into the world to condemn, but to call people to salvation. I don't see any capstone there that says only a certain ammount of people are called to salvation, but rather everyone who believes in Christ. No one is predestined to hell, for the predestination is that God calls everyone to salvation. But in the end, those that did not seek the light will remain in the darkness and be condemned by their own free will that refused to seek the light. But, until the end, there is hope in the potential that they might come to salvation before they reach the end.

Pax Tecum,

John

Trento · Apr 12, 2006

Some scripture for the thread initiationater.

.When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:1-16; interestingly, in these two chapter of Romans St. Paul summarizes Wisdom 13-19)

The ``law unto themselves'' is man's participation in God's eternal law, sometimes known as the natural law. Significantly, St. Paul has not mentioned faith in Christ as a condition for knowledge of this natural law: it is a law knowable by all men without respect to creed. As St. Paul says, it is written on men's hearts, though it can be clouded by sin.

St. Luke, who was a disciple of St. Paul, reports in his gospel the words of Jesus:

And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. (Lk 12:47-48, cf. Lk 19:26, Mt 25:29, Mk 4:25)

It is finally God alone who sees into men's hearts and what truth they have been given in life, and it is he who will judge on this basis. It is not for human judges to divide the sheep from the goats.

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

Well, just in case anyone is interested in the posts that happened to respond to the OP here they are:

29, 32, 38, and 42.

Since the OP apparently only cares to bash the Church and has no interests in trying to understand, I leave these links to the posts open for discussion with people that actually would like to discuss the theology behind what we Catholics believe.

Pax Tecum,

John

Redwolf · Apr 12, 2006

JCrawf said:
Yawn

So what's the point? Oh yeah, you disagree with our Church. Yadda yadda. Same old broken record.

Here's an idea, if you don't like the Catholic Church, you don't have to bother posting nonsense about her just to bolster your ego. You can just walk along your merry old way and find something more constructive to do with your time.

Pax Tecum,

John

Here's a reciprocal idea. Just for you.
I'll let you know when I will take instructions -- of any kind -- from you.

Redwolf · Apr 12, 2006

JCrawf said:
Well, just in case anyone is interested in the posts that happened to respond to the OP here they are:

29, 32, 38, and 42.

Since the OP apparently only cares to bash the Church and has no interests in trying to understand, I leave these links to the posts open for discussion with people that actually would like to discuss the theology behind what we Catholics believe.

Pax Tecum,

John

Good luck!
What you Catholics believe is well-known. You make no bones about it. You just get uppity when you are questioned.

Redwolf · Apr 12, 2006

JCrawf said:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17)

Christ did not come into the world to condemn, but to call people to salvation. I don't see any capstone there that says only a certain ammount of people are called to salvation, but rather everyone who believes in Christ. No one is predestined to hell, for the predestination is that God calls everyone to salvation. But in the end, those that did not seek the light will remain in the darkness and be condemned by their own free will that refused to seek the light. But, until the end, there is hope in the potential that they might come to salvation before they reach the end.

Pax Tecum,

John

rather everyone who believes in Christ.

And that is precisely why I quoted John 3:16
EVERYONE who believes in Christ, but NOT EVERYONE who says lord, lord.
Enjoy!

Redwolf · Apr 12, 2006

JCrawf said:
If one considers what St. Pauls was saying, there really isn't any excuse because gentiles know what is expected of them morally under the natural law, and Jews were taught the Law through moses. In both instances, what is expected of a person regarding the law, whether by natural experience or by divine revelation is present. That is why there is no excuse for not knowing the law, for can know by conscience or actual knowledge whether something is right or wrong. Adam and Even knew it, and yet they were not given the Law, for the Law was not introduced until Moses. Therefore, From Adam until Moses, the law was there naturally.

There's probably at least half a billion left on the planet who are not Christian.

It would seem to me more arrogant to lay claim that you are assured that nearly half a billion of the world's population is going to Hell because they haven't read the Bible. Can you honestly say you know the mind of God on this matter? As far as I know, those not knowing Christ will be judged, but we don't know for certain what their final fate will be - nor do we know ours with absolute certainty. To proclaim that we do is real arrogance.

Yet, God still calls us sinners, despite how dispicable you see humanity. I'm sorry that you hate your fellow humans, especially that you would want to claim those you know nothing about the hellfire. God knows the heart, you don't.

Pax Tecum,

John

There's probably at least half a billion left on the planet who are not Christian.

You're sneaky! Carefully rewording what I actually said proves an intellectual dishonesty that is revelatory.
Shameful!

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

Redwolf said:
Good luck!
What you Catholics believe is well-known. You make no bones about it. You just get uppity when you are questioned.

Sorry, but this: Nothing, and I mean nothing your church has to offer by way of explanations is acceptable to this Prot.

That is not questioning. It makes clear that your intentions are not to ask questions, and notes you are not sincerely seeking any answers from anyone. Therefore, your intentions are dubious, and the only thing that is really a question is why do you bother to post pretending to have a question when you already have the answer and made up you mind not to accept anyone else's?

Pax Tecum,

John

CaDan · Apr 12, 2006

Redwolf said:
[/I]
You're sneaky! Carefully rewording what I actually said proves an intellectual dishonesty that is revelatory.
Shameful!

Dude! You had a revelation?

Were there, like, talking beasts with multiple heads and stuff? Or saints with their chests ripped open?

'Cause that would be pretty cool.

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

Redwolf said:
You're sneaky! Carefully rewording what I actually said proves an intellectual dishonesty that is revelatory.
Shameful!

Oh I get it!

You are just looking to start a flame war because you don't have anything real to say. Therefore, you trump up an accusation that has no warrant, being that you have no copyright on a number, nor can you provide anywhere in the original subject anything you can legitimately argue on with much intellectual thought. Thanks for warning me!

Pax Tecum,

John

Redwolf · Apr 12, 2006

JCrawf said:
Sorry, but this: Nothing, and I mean nothing your church has to offer by way of explanations is acceptable to this Prot.

That is not questioning. It makes clear that your intentions are not to ask questions, and notes you are not sincerely seeking any answers from anyone. Therefore, your intentions are dubious, and the only thing that is really a question is why do you bother to post pretending to have a question when you already have the answer and made up you mind not to accept anyone else's?

Pax Tecum,

John

Let it occur to you that I have had much time to ask questions and receive answers and long before you came along repeating them.

CaDan · Apr 12, 2006

Redwolf said:
Let it occur to you that I have had much time to ask questions and receive answers and long before you came along repeating them.

Oh, OK.

Then we're done here, right?

jckstraw72 · Apr 12, 2006

Let it occur to you that I have had much time to ask questions and receive answers and long before you came along repeating them.

let it occur to you that you either dont know who to ask or dont know how to listen

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

Redwolf said:
Let it occur to you that I have had much time to ask questions and receive answers and long before you came along repeating them.

There are lots of things that occur to me at the moment, many of which I cannot say here, nor do I think worthy to bother with saying to you anyways.

Pax Tecum,

John

JCrawf · Apr 12, 2006

jckstraw72 said:
let it occur to you that you either dont know who to ask or dont know how to listen

It would occur to me that it may be a bit of the former, but moreso the latter.

Pax Tecum,

John

Irenaeus · Apr 12, 2006

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How Christ became superfluous

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