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How certain are we that God forgives habitual sin?

PrincetonGuy

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If God promises to work in us to will and do His good pleasure, does that mean when a Christian falls from the faith, God broke his promise? Or that God was not powerful enough to complete His work?

If the latter then why is Christ called the author and finisher of our faith?

There's so much scripture that is clearly against the idea that a true Christian can ever fall from the faith that it seems silly to take a single verse that sounds like the opposite and say it trumps all the rest.

Either the Hebrews passage is understood wrongly, or the 100's of other verses are understood wrongly.

It's easier to misunderstand 1 verse than it is 100 verses, is it not?

From Naves Topical Bible,

Apostasy
Described
Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12
Caused by persecution
Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13
Caused by worldliness
2Ti_4:10
Guilt and punishment of
Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22
Cautions against
Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17
Shall abound in the latter days
Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3
See Antichrist
Unclassified scriptures relating to
General references
Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6
See Backsliders; Reprobacy
Instances of:
Israelites
Ex 32; Num 14
Saul
1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18
Amaziah
2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27
Disciples
Joh_6:66
Judas
Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18
Hymenaeus and Alexander
1Ti_1:19-20
Phygellus and Hermogenes
2Ti_1:15
See Backsliders, Backsliding of Israel
 
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98cwitr

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Dear Sir.

1 John 2:18. Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB, 1995)

Many thousands of man hours have been invested by New Testament scholars in attempts to determine the precise nature of the community of believes to which John wrote his first epistle, but it is agreed by all scholars of the epistle that John wrote his epistle to a community of believes who were very confused and held to beliefs very different from the beliefs of the Jews to whom Jesus ministered and of the Jews and Gentiles to whom Paul ministered and wrote. Some people had left that community, and John refers to them in 2:28 as “antichrists,” and says that “they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.” What does this have to do with the doctrine of apostasy from the Christian faith?

Glad you asked:

Matthew 12:30
“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

Who ever is not the elect is, for all intensive purposes, an anti-christ. All anti-christs are apostate and all apostates are anti-christs.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Glad you asked:

Matthew 12:30
“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

Who ever is not the elect is, for all intensive purposes, an anti-christ. All anti-christs are apostate and all apostates are anti-christs.

What? Where in Matthew 12:30 do you find anyone apostatizing from anything? Do you know what apostasy means? Have you studied the meaning of the Greek word translated as apostasy? Antichrists cannot be apostates unless they were for a time Christians.
 
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So essentially we can snatch ourselves out of God's hand?

Loophole?

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
nobody can snatch you away, you can walk away on your own free will
 
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No one who has saving faith in Christ falls away, ever. Their falling away is from a false profession never having truly believed in Christ and trusted in him alone as their savior in the first place.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."





The real obsurdity comes from someone claiming to fall from something that they truly had faith in.
like I always say theres two ditches with most doctrine, to far in one side or to far in the other, the bible is a balanced road
 
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98cwitr

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Mathew 7:23

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".


Keep ignoring the most obvious passage for eternal security. ;)

exactly...it doesn't say "I once knew you..." It says never

οὐδέποτε,d \{oo-dep'-ot-eh}
1) never

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3763.htm

^^^Looks like the definitions are pretty absolute...so much for "balanced road."
 
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Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.” (NASB, 1995)

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.
NOW THIS IS A BIBLICALLY BALANCED TEACHING! been awhile since I've read such a good post on the subject. It simply doesn't make sense when your in a ditch and your faced with contradicting passages, which ever side your in.....get back on the road!:thumbsup:
 
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Sometimes you just have to take the criticism from some of the ones who are gonna hold to one form of 'ism', or 'ist', than another. I know it may sound heretical to some, but I just will not be bound by one so strongly, that I ignore some warnings, the text will clearly give.

This is one of those texts. Specifically Heb. 10:29, and yes I know the entire context. Fact is, the text says, "who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is a warning. A very stern one. I believe custom was, or scholars more familiar with jewish customs wrote, that at passover, when the blood was placed on the mantle and doorpost, they had to be very careful and not let any of the blood spill or drop onto the floor at the doorway. To trample on the blood would disgrace the sacrifice.

This warning is clearly given to one who has been sanctified, as the bold letters (made bold) in the text shows. The reference is to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the blood of the covenant through Him. This particular verse is making no reference to any OT sacrifice.

The Bible will convict all, whatever church or doctrine we may hold to. Far as I am concerned that is how it should be. If not careful we will become guilty of the very same things the church was doing when the protest was made. Refusing to let scripture have authority over church teachings.

The issue concerning these verses are not about knowing, and not knowing. "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" easily shows the seriousness of the blood of the New Covenant. Yes, they would just offer another sacrifice, which was only a shadow of what was to come, as Heb. 10:1-6 clearly points out. And then the fulfillment in Jesus Christ is pointed out in verses 7-14. The fact that the Holy Spirit abides and writes His law on the heart is then pointed out, verses 15 and 16. The results are spoken of in verses 17-22. Exhortation is given in verses 22-25. And then we are warned, and that is what all the fuss is about. The seriousness is evident in the text being discussed. If scripture says something stern, just accept it, instead of jumping all around in scripture, which is what many will do.

Nobody has changed one single word of the text being discussed. We are a society of empty words and promises. God does not work that way. Calvinist, eternal security folks, will say those who commit apostasy, never were saved. The other folks will say they lost what they had. The results are going to be the same. Who is truly guilty, is not going to be decided by us anyhow. Surely, though, we can both agree, that exactly as Jesus said, "Many will say to Me in that day". He did not say what 'ism' they held either. Or what church group they would come out of. Personally, I believe some are living a lie, or are deceived, out of every one of them. And yes, some are gonna make it, but suffer much loss, because all they focused on was trash. Straw, wood, stubble. They never got serious enough to earn the precious materials, they cost too much. This ain't as light a matter as some are thinking, folks. And that is my input on Heb. Chapter 10.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Originally Posted by RobertZ
Mathew 7:23

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".


Keep ignoring the most obvious passage for eternal security.


exactly...it doesn't say "I once knew you..." It says never

οὐδέποτε,d \{oo-dep'-ot-eh}
1) never

3763. οὐδέποτε (oudepote) -- never

^^^Looks like the definitions are pretty absolute...so much for "balanced road."

Matt. 7:21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23. “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’”

Jesus has a personal relationship ONLY with those people who have been justified by faith and who are doing the will of His Father who is in heaven. Prophesying in His name, casting out demons in His name, and performing many miracles in his name does not make one justified.

This passage in Matthew says nothing at all about true, born-again Christians who were justified by faith and did the will of the Father for a period of time, but of their own free will, cease to do so and become apostates.

Critical to the correct interpretation of this passage is grasping the force of the Greek present participle ποιων in v. 21 translated as “does.” Greek present participles do not speak of one-time actions, but of continuous, ongoing action. The ONLY people who will enter the kingdom of heaven are those people have been justified by faith and who are continuing in an ongoing manner to do the will of the Father.

Colossians 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Um, you can't have "justified and" anything to be saved. Otherwise, justification loses it's meaning. "Justified and" sounds very RCC.

Are you saying that Jesus was a heretic, a Roman Catholic, a fruitcake, or just plain confused?

Matt. 7:21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23. “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is contrasting doing the will of His father with practicing lawlessness. What, therefore, does Jesus mean by doing “the will of [His] Father who is in heaven?
 
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Sometimes you just have to take the criticism from some of the ones who are gonna hold to one form of 'ism', or 'ist', than another. I know it may sound heretical to some, but I just will not be bound by one so strongly, that I ignore some warnings, the text will clearly give.

This is one of those texts. Specifically Heb. 10:29, and yes I know the entire context. Fact is, the text says, "who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is a warning. A very stern one. I believe custom was, or scholars more familiar with jewish customs wrote, that at passover, when the blood was placed on the mantle and doorpost, they had to be very careful and not let any of the blood spill or drop onto the floor at the doorway. To trample on the blood would disgrace the sacrifice.

This warning is clearly given to one who has been sanctified, as the bold letters (made bold) in the text shows. The reference is to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the blood of the covenant through Him. This particular verse is making no reference to any OT sacrifice.

The Bible will convict all, whatever church or doctrine we may hold to. Far as I am concerned that is how it should be. If not careful we will become guilty of the very same things the church was doing when the protest was made. Refusing to let scripture have authority over church teachings.

The issue concerning these verses are not about knowing, and not knowing. "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" easily shows the seriousness of the blood of the New Covenant. Yes, they would just offer another sacrifice, which was only a shadow of what was to come, as Heb. 10:1-6 clearly points out. And then the fulfillment in Jesus Christ is pointed out in verses 7-14. The fact that the Holy Spirit abides and writes His law on the heart is then pointed out, verses 15 and 16. The results are spoken of in verses 17-22. Exhortation is given in verses 22-25. And then we are warned, and that is what all the fuss is about. The seriousness is evident in the text being discussed. If scripture says something stern, just accept it, instead of jumping all around in scripture, which is what many will do.

Nobody has changed one single word of the text being discussed. We are a society of empty words and promises. God does not work that way. Calvinist, eternal security folks, will say those who commit apostasy, never were saved. The other folks will say they lost what they had. The results are going to be the same. Who is truly guilty, is not going to be decided by us anyhow. Surely, though, we can both agree, that exactly as Jesus said, "Many will say to Me in that day". He did not say what 'ism' they held either. Or what church group they would come out of. Personally, I believe some are living a lie, or are deceived, out of every one of them. And yes, some are gonna make it, but suffer much loss, because all they focused on was trash. Straw, wood, stubble. They never got serious enough to earn the precious materials, they cost too much. This ain't as light a matter as some are thinking, folks. And that is my input on Heb. Chapter 10.
WOW! two good post in a row! when are the ditch diggers gonna get here?
 
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98cwitr

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Matt. 7:21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23. “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’”

Jesus has a personal relationship ONLY with those people who have been justified by faith and who are doing the will of His Father who is in heaven. Prophesying in His name, casting out demons in His name, and performing many miracles in his name does not make one justified.

This passage in Matthew says nothing at all about true, born-again Christians who were justified by faith and did the will of the Father for a period of time, but of their own free will, cease to do so and become apostates.

Critical to the correct interpretation of this passage is grasping the force of the Greek present participle ποιων in v. 21 translated as “does.” Greek present participles do not speak of one-time actions, but of continuous, ongoing action. The ONLY people who will enter the kingdom of heaven are those people have been justified by faith and who are continuing in an ongoing manner to do the will of the Father.

Colossians 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)

And how does one come to do the Will of God, is this of themselves? Are you preaching self-righteousness now?
 
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And how does one come to do the Will of God, is this of themselves? Are you preaching self-righteousness now?
good question! what does the bible say about obtaining righteousness, how did the great men of the bible do it? see the problem with no longer giving man a free will, is it stands in complete contradiction to huge portions of scripture, needless to say puts God in the business of making you sinful just as its Him making you righteous, Its a ditch doctrine!
 
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98cwitr

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good question! what does the bible say about obtaining righteousness, how did the great men of the bible do it? see the problem with no longer giving man a free will, is it stands in complete contradiction to huge portions of scripture, needless to say puts God in the business of making you sinful just as its Him making you righteous, Its a ditch doctrine!

God doesn't force me to be sinful...we're born slaves to sin due to original sin (now if you want to go into why God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden...let's do it but in a new thread :) ). That which is sinful will inherently be sinful! This is why Christ says we must be born again [of Spirit and not flesh]. Following the Law never saved anyone (Hebrews 10:1, Ephesians 2:8) only Christ saves...we cannot save ourselves.
 
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RobertZ

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God doesn't force me to be sinful...we're born slaves to sin due to original sin. That which is sinful will inherently be sinful! This is why Christ says we must be born again [of Spirit and not flesh]. Following the Law never saved anyone (Hebrews 10:1, Ephesians 2:8) only Christ saves...we cannot save ourselves.

:amen:
 
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Hammster

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thegospelisoffensive said:
good question! what does the bible say about obtaining righteousness, how did the great men of the bible do it? see the problem with no longer giving man a free will, is it stands in complete contradiction to huge portions of scripture, needless to say puts God in the business of making you sinful just as its Him making you righteous, Its a ditch doctrine!

A straw man? Really?
 
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98cwitr

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A straw man? Really?

Come again?

oz_scarecrow_1.jpg


:p
 
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