How certain are we that God forgives habitual sin?

[RobertZ]

I am not aware of even one exegetical commentary on the Greek text of Hebrews that says that the author of the epistle is writing about Jewish Christians returning “to the practice of animal sacrifices,” or limiting the author’s use of the word “sinning” to any particular kind of sin. Indeed, the Greek word in Hebrews 10:26 translated as “sinning” is the most commonly used Greek word for all kinds of sin, and the context does not allow for any other meaning of the word. Commentaries on Hebrews by men who are not scholars of the Greek language and who have an over-active imagination are more than likely to lead astray anyone who relies upon them.

Would you care to list for us some of the “many commentaries from great Bible scholars” who “have done a thorough job of explaining the Hebrews 10:26-29 passage,” and then tell us which of them “come to the exact same conclusion” that you did? I have in my personal library 27 commentaries on Hebrews written by scholars and Bible teachers representing a wide spectrum of theological thought, and none of them come to a conclusion even remotely like yours.

For discussions by current Baptist scholars of the use of the word “sinning” in Hebrews 10:26, see the following:

Allen, David L. Hebrews. The New American Commentary, Volume 35. Nashville: B. & H. Publishing Group. 2010.

Schreiner, Thomas R. and Ardel B. Caneday. The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance and Assurance. Westmont: InterVarsity Press. 2001.

No offense but im not interested in debating with you, I have seen a lot of what you have to say around here and it usually involves going round and round with other members who constantly provide you with the biblical evidence which you seek but for some reason its either never enough or its not good enough.

With that being said I will end this by assuring you that I have every right to believe that the book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers who were being exhorted to press on to maturity and not to fall back into the practice of the OT Laws because that is EXACTLY what the book is about.

Good day.

 

[Hammster]

No offense but im not interested in debating with you, I have seen a lot of what you have to say around here and it usually involves going round and round with other members who constantly provide you with the biblical evidence which you seek but for some reason its either never enough or its not good enough.

With that being said I will end this by assuring you that I have every right to believe that the book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers who were being exhorted to press on to maturity and not to fall back into the practice of the OT Laws because that is EXACTLY what the book is about.

Good day.

Yep.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I would have to add that an element of grace should be considered to the soul thats battling habitual sin, and hating it!....which is a much different picture of someone who commits a habitual sin with absolutely no conscience of regret, just merely "this is what I do", "I can't get free of it", "so might as well not let it bother me" this is an unrepentent heart, and I believe that God works to bring men into alignment with His truth, and if your not being molded and changed day after day year after year then your not growing in the faith, and you have serious problems. I know for myself each battle I overcome, theres a new one the Lord puts before me, something not new, just somthing He wants to change in me......I think the Key is never giving up in a battle, I have had victorys and setbacks, but through time I am overcoming many things that were a huge battle years ago, and now just a memory

 

[PrincetonGuy]

No offense but im not interested in debating with you, I have seen a lot of what you have to say around here and it usually involves going round and round with other members who constantly provide you with the biblical evidence which you seek but for some reason its either never enough or its not good enough.

With that being said I will end this by assuring you that I have every right to believe that the book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers who were being exhorted to press on to maturity and not to fall back into the practice of the OT Laws because that is EXACTLY what the book is about.

Good day.

I did not challenge you to debate with me; I challenged you to back up the claims that you made regarding commentaries on Hebrews. You have every right to believe anything that you choose to believe, but no one has the right to make the false claims that you made regarding the “many commentaries from great Bible scholars” who “have done a thorough job of explaining the Hebrews 10:26-29 passage.”

Moreover, “biblical evidence” which ignores the grammar, vocabulary, and phraseology of the Biblical writers is not “biblical evidence;” indeed, it is not evidence at all. I have never asked anyone in any thread in this forum to take my word for anything; instead, I present the very same, solid arguments used by the most learned Biblical scholars in order to challenge my readers to dig deeper into the word and carefully and prayerfully study the Bible in the languages in which it was written.

 

[RobertZ]

I did not challenge you to debate with me; I challenged you to back up the claims that you made regarding commentaries on Hebrews. You have every right to believe anything that you choose to believe, but no one has the right to make the false claims that you made regarding the “many commentaries from great Bible scholars” who “have done a thorough job of explaining the Hebrews 10:26-29 passage.”

Moreover, “biblical evidence” which ignores the grammar, vocabulary, and phraseology of the Biblical writers is not “biblical evidence;” indeed, it is not evidence at all. I have never asked anyone in any thread in this forum to take my word for anything; instead, I present the very same, solid arguments used by the most learned Biblical scholars in order to challenge my readers to dig deeper into the word and carefully and prayerfully study the Bible in the languages in which it was written.

Im gonna go ahead and ask you nicely right now to no longer respond to me on these forums, if you continue to do so in spite of this request I will be within my rights to report you for harrassment.

Good day.

 

[student ad x]

........ BTW many commentaries from great Bible scholars have done a thorough job of explaining the hebrews 10:26-29 passage and most come to the exact same conclusion because after all Hebrews was written to the Jews who were considering turning their backs on Christ and going back to the OT laws, once a person has learned about Christ their remains no more sacrafice for sins if they choose to return to the practice of animal sacrafices because Christ is the only sacrafice for sins!

The author (of Hebrews) addresses those in the church who were tempted to revert to Judaism in order to avoid discrimination and persecution. He does not cast a glance backward, contemplate the state of those who have lapsed, and ask whether they were genuine believers. He is walking forward, urging the readers to adhere to the gospel and continue in the faith until the return of Christ. The warning is prospective, designed to prevent the readers from drifting away from the gospel that they embrace. Certainly the author hopes that his warnings will function as one of the means by which the readers will be impeded from apostasy. The author does not say that they will not turn away from the good news that they believed..

Thomas R. Schreiner: pg 596 - New Testament Theology (Baker Academic)

The warning in Hebrews 10:26-39 supports the claim that the sin in view is apostasy. Willful persistence in sin refers to deliberate sin, which is identified in the O.T. as sin "with a high hand," for which there is no forgiveness (cf. Lev. 4:2,22,27; Num. 15:30; Deut. 17:12; Ps. 19:13). for those who sin willfully "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" (Heb. 10:26). In other words, if the readers turn away from the cross of Christ for the cleansing of their sins and consciences, no other sacrifice will avail. (118)[Lindars - 1991:69 "Paradoxically they are turning away from the means of reconciliation in the endeavor to find it."] Reverting to the O.T. cult will not offer any help, for animal sacrifices cannot take away sins (Heb. 10:4). If the readers rely on such sacrifices for forgiveness, they deny the efficacy of
Christ's atonement and thus cut themselves off from the only means by which sins can be forgiven. The threadt of judgment, fire, vengeance, and recompense points to the final judgment inflicted by God upon unbelievers who tramples on Jesus as God's Son, treats Jesus' blood as it were defiled and unclean instead of precious, and outrages the Spirit that gives grace (Heb. 10:29). The reference to the Lord's judging of his people, if they undergo judgment, for they claimed to be his people but denied them by their works.

Thomas R. Schreiner; pg. 588-589 - New Testament Theology (Baker Academic)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Thomas R. Schreiner: pg 596 - New Testament Theology (Baker Academic)
Thomas R. Schreiner; pg. 588-589 - New Testament Theology (Baker Academic)

Several points:

1. The work by Schreiner (New Testament Theology: Magnifying God in Christ) that you have quoted from is not a commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews; it is a work on New Testament Theology in general.

2. Schreiner, although a Reformed Baptist, is nearly alone in his interpretation of what he calls the “warning passages in Hebrew.” Unlike Calvinists and other Reformed Baptists, Schreiner believes that the warning passages in Hebrew speak of true Christians committing apostasy, but that the warning passages are used by God to prevent the apostasy from actually taking place. His theology on this issue is discussed in more detail in the book by Schreiner and Caneday that I cited in my post above.

3. RobertZ said that the sinning in Hebrews 10:26 is a “specific sin in which the Jews continue to practice the old covenant laws after hearing about Christ.” Schreiner does not teach that.

4. Although the sin of apostasy is mentioned in the other warning passages in Hebrews, it is not mentioned in Heb. 10:26. If the writer of Hebrews had exclusively apostasy in mind, he would have written of apostasy rather than willfully sinning. He did not write,

26. For if we go on committing apostasy after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

He wrote,

26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (NASB, 1995)

5. Although sinning willfully includes committing apostasy, it also includes committing all other forms of sin.

<MSC edit>

7. In your post, you sidestepped the issue by quoting from a work on general New Testament theology instead of a quoting from a commentary on Hebrews.

 

[chris4243]

I think that what is actually the case is that habitual sin is evidence that you are not saved, nor have not repented of your sin. Faith and works are inseparable -- you can tell a man's faith, or lack thereof, by his fruit. But salvation itself is by faith through Jesus.

No one will deny that God will forgive a habitual life of sin, should said sinner repent of their sins and accept Christ as their savior. But beware should you fall away:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.

 

[RobertZ]

3. RobertZ said that the sinning in Hebrews 10:26 is a &#8220;specific sin in which the Jews continue to practice the old covenant laws after hearing about Christ.&#8221; Schreiner does not teach that.

Thomas R. Schreiner: pg 596 - New Testament Theology (Baker Academic)

"Paradoxically they are turning away from the means of reconciliation in the endeavor to find it."] Reverting to the O.T. cult will not offer any help, for animal sacrifices cannot take away sins (Heb. 10:4). If the readers rely on such sacrifices for forgiveness, they deny the efficacy of
Christ's atonement and thus cut themselves off from the only means by which sins can be forgiven. The threadt of judgment, fire, vengeance, and recompense points to the final judgment inflicted by God upon unbelievers who tramples on Jesus as God's Son, treats Jesus' blood as it were defiled and unclean instead of precious, and outrages the Spirit that gives grace (Heb. 10:29). The reference to the Lord's judging of his people, if they undergo judgment, for they claimed to be his people but denied them by their works.

LOL.
​

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Thomas R. Schreiner: pg 596 - New Testament Theology (Baker Academic)

"Paradoxically they are turning away from the means of reconciliation in the endeavor to find it."] Reverting to the O.T. cult will not offer any help, for animal sacrifices cannot take away sins (Heb. 10:4). If the readers rely on such sacrifices for forgiveness, they deny the efficacy of
Christ's atonement and thus cut themselves off from the only means by which sins can be forgiven. The threadt of judgment, fire, vengeance, and recompense points to the final judgment inflicted by God upon unbelievers who tramples on Jesus as God's Son, treats Jesus' blood as it were defiled and unclean instead of precious, and outrages the Spirit that gives grace (Heb. 10:29). The reference to the Lord's judging of his people, if they undergo judgment, for they claimed to be his people but denied them by their works.

LOL.
​

There is nothing laughable about quoting from a highly-respected New Testament scholar and suggesting that he teaches an incorrect and absurd interpretation on Heb. 10:26 when that is not the case. If you do not want me to reply to your posts, please do not reply to mine. In the meantime, please read the book by Schreiner and Caneday, The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance and Assurance, in which they explain in detail their understanding of the Heb. 10:26.

 

[RobertZ]

There is nothing laughable about quoting from a highly-respected New Testament scholar and suggesting that he teaches an incorrect and absurd interpretation on Heb. 10:26

You still dont get it, do you? Hint: Its not the quote that im laughing about, obviously. I reposted that quote because he states EXACTLY what it is that I was talking about the whole time and you then come along stating that he doesnt teach it, did you even bother to read the quote from him? obviously not.

As for replying directly to you I no more mentioned your name or replied directly to yourself than what you did when you continued to carry on to others using my name and claiming that I was making false accusations against Biblical Scholars.

This is the whole reason to start with that I wasnt interested in debating with you because even after you have been presented with enough evidence to show your in the wrong you continue to straw man and twist everything around to fit your twisted theology.

 

[98cwitr]

God will forgive...but you have to sincerely repent. If there is no repentance, then there is no forgiveness. Then your sins will be held against you on the day of judgement.

Robert, what about 1 John 3?

 

[RobertZ]

John MacArthur-

&#9733; THE RESULTS OF APOSTASY—

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The LORD will judge His people." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

===================================================

&#9733; NO SACRIFICE FOR SIN REMAINS—

The first result of APOSTASY is that the APOSTATE no longer has a sacrifice that can atone for his sins. He is, therefore, beyond salvation. The only sacrifice that can bring a person into God's presence is the sacrifice of Christ's blood in the New Covenant. If Christ's sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is forfeited. Opportunity is gone, hope is gone, eternal life is gone. Apart from Christ, everything worth having is gone. The old, repeated sacrifices of Judaism would soon be stopped. They were ineffective, anyway. The only effective sacrifice has already been made, and will be made only once. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death.

&#9733; APOSTATES REJECT THE SON—

I believe the phrase by which he was sanctified refers to Christ. It could not refer to the apostate who is regarding the blood as unclean, because he is hardly sanctified. The reference, therefore, must be to Christ. In His high priestly prayer, Jesus spoke of His sanctifying Himself for the sake of those who believed in Him (John 17:19). He set Himself apart unto God, even as He sanctifies us, by the blood of the covenant, shed on Calvary. The apostate counts this sacrifice as unclean, despised, worthless. In so doing he has rejected the second Person of the Trinity, whose very blood was shed for him.

The apostate regards Christ's blood as common blood, just like that of any other person. That which cost God His Son, and that which cost the Son the agony of becoming sin for us, is counted as worthless. That which is of infinite value, he counts as valueless.

&#9733; APOSTATES REJECT THE HOLY SPIRIT—

The man who has been led by the Spirit of grace in the presalvation work of redemption and has been energized by Him toward repentance (John 16:8-11), insults the Spirit by turning from Christ. He rejects the gracious work of preparation done by the Spirit in his heart—and that is APOSTASY.
By trampling under foot the Son of God, he rejects God the Father. By regarding the blood of the covenant as unclean, He rejects the Son. By insulting the gentle, gracious leading of the Spirit, he rejects the Spirit. No wonder he deserves much severer punishment.

Hebrews 10:30-31 “For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The LORD will judge His people." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

God is long-suffering, and patient, and loving, and infinitely gracious, not willing that anyone should perish (2 Pet 3:9). But for the one who turns his back on God's grace, there is nothing left that God can offer or do for him. Only judgment remains.

 

[RobertZ]

Robert, what about 1 John 3?

What about it? I agree with it whole heartedly. For some reason I think its being confused that im implying a believer can continue on in willful sin and that is not at all what im saying.

 

[billybtennessee]

While Hebrews does go into detail about how the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, for atonement of sins, replaces the sacrificial rituals of the OT, it is absolutely not the only teaching in Hebrews, Nor is the letter intended only for Jewish people who lived back then. That history is helpful, absolutely, but does not mean we do not need to heed what it teaches. I don't think anyone is doing that.

Hebrews 6: verses 1 and 2 speaks of more than OT temple sacrifices, and is definitely part of the text. As for 'habitual sin', verses 11 and 12 should speak to that, for anybody. Leave the elementary, and go on to maturity, is the clear teaching. We are to learn from their examples, not find loopholes in them. We are told to not do as they did. And if we want to focus on persons in the OT, then do it right, look at what any disobedience cost them. Be 'victors', 'overcome', just as Jesus told us in Rev. Chps. 2 and 3. He bled and died so that we can. We will answer to Him.

 

[98cwitr]

What about it? I agree with it whole heartedly. For some reason I think its being confused that im implying a believer can continue on in willful sin and that is not at all what im saying.

True enough, bro-ham

 

[RobertZ]

While Hebrews does go into detail about how the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, for atonement of sins, replaces the sacrificial rituals of the OT, it is absolutely not the only teaching in Hebrews, Nor is the letter intended only for Jewish people who lived back then. That history is helpful, absolutely, but does not mean we do not need to heed what it teaches. I don't think anyone is doing that.

Hebrews 6: verses 1 and 2 speaks of more than OT temple sacrifices, and is definitely part of the text. As for 'habitual sin', verses 11 and 12 should speak to that, for anybody. Leave the elementary, and go on to maturity, is the clear teaching. We are to learn from their examples, not find loopholes in them. We are told to not do as they did. And if we want to focus on persons in the OT, then do it right, look at what any disobedience cost them. Be 'victors', 'overcome', just as Jesus told us in Rev. Chps. 2 and 3. He bled and died so that we can. We will answer to Him.

I agree, Hebrews is also a warning for those living today as well even though it was written during a time of heavy persecution for new Jewish believers who were tempted to return to the OT practices because of persectution etc for following Christ.

Its not only Jews who can become apostate, its gentiles as well.

 

[RobertZ]

&#8220;For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins.&#8221; Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23. These are those who &#8220;receive with joy&#8221; the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ.

&#8220;Willful sinning&#8221; in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God&#8217;s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up. The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can&#8217;t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that &#8220;No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God&#8221; (1 John 3:9).

Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God&#8217;s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example&#8212;he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. No other rejector of the truth had more or better exposure to the love and grace of God than Judas. He was part of Jesus&#8217; inner circle of disciples, eating, sleeping, and traveling with Him for years. He saw the miracles and heard the words of God from Jesus&#8217; very lips, from the best preacher the world has ever known, and yet he not only turned away but was instrumental in the plot to kill Jesus.

Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ&#8217;s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-10-26.html

 

[billybtennessee]

Got this thread confused with the other thread on Hebrews. I believe it was chapter 6. This one is 10. oops. sorry. But it was a good explanation of Heb. 6.....

Maybe I will get in chapter 10 now. Don't want to apostasize. Abide in Jesus Christ. Carry on.

 

[RobertZ]

Don't want to apostasize. Abide in Jesus Christ. Carry on.

If your truly saved, "that is the Holy Ghost resides inside of you" then you will never apostasize because he that began a good work in you WILL carry it on to completion unto the day of Christ Jesus.

Its those who are exposed to the Gospel over and over again yet never become saved are the ones who are in danger of falling away forever because if they do not respond to the Gospel call they will only harden their hearts towards it and eventually will reach a point in the heart hardening process which will make it impossible for them to ever respond to the Gospel Message.