How can there be free will in heaven?

[Original Happy Camper]

as did the law in the Garden

What law was that?

 

[timothyu]

What law was that?

No picking fruit out of season

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Agreed and Able knew this

Yes Abel knew his parents sinned and that God prepared skins from an animal to cover, not atone for their sin.

 

[Clare73]

What law was that?

The direct command of God to Adam in Genesis 2:16-17 with the death penalty attached.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Yes Abel knew his parents sinned and that God prepared skins from an animal to cover, not atone for their sin.

so what was the offering for that got him killed by his brother?

 

[John Caldwell]

*Calvinism*

I didn't think most Calvinists believed in free-will.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The direct command of God to Adam in Genesis 2:16-17 with the death penalty attached.

disobedience to God
That law and punishment is still with us
Wages of sin is death
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Clare73]

disobedience to God
That law and punishment is still with us

Actually what is still with us is the guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18) by which all mankind is born condemned.

Wages of sin is death
Romans 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Clare73]

so what was the offering for that got him killed by his brother?

Worship. . .

 

[levnishbar]

The same way everyone who choses to sin is heir to the judgements upon their sinful parents (not their sin) when sown into mankind in response to their own choosing sin.

Sorry, it is not so clear and a bit difficult to understand. Can you please explain it another way?

You mean the child's punishment is part of God's corporate judgment on all of mankind?

It seems to be a pretty specific, ongoing (for 10 generations) and human-implemented punishment to cut off the child from the people because of the sin of the parents. Does anyone even remember some of the indiscretions your great great great grandparents did, let alone 10 generations up?

 

[BobRyan]

What is stopping another fall? Why are Christians promised ETERNAL life if God is just going to recreate everything and give us bodies like Adam and Eve had? To me it makes no sense that you can have free will over God's sovereignty because what is stopping another human being, angel, or other created being from wanting power? If our will is free in the Arminian sense, there is NOTHING stopping another fall because Adam and Eve were created perfect as well. The only reason they were allowed to sin was because God decreed it. God decrees no sin forever, than there will be no more sin forever.

The zombie apocalypse idea that God fails to motivate free will sentient beings to obey His Word and so has to zaaaaap the brain of all sentient life to get obedience - has never been proven.

Free will sentient beings are motivated to 100% correct decisions by compelling evidence.

This world of sin - 6000 years of rebellion - provides the "case law" the "billions of argument" all played out just as Job in the book of Job - that inoculates beings for all eternity to avoid the mind numbing cancer of rebellion. They can see the data, they see the evidence for all the ways it was tried and all the ways that it failed.

That is why we have the kind of 1 Cor 10 chapter that we have.

That is why God says in Is 5:4 "What More was there to do than that which I have already done?"

 

[timothyu]

You mean the child's punishment is part of God's corporate judgment on all of mankind?

More likely the rabbis insecurities about their wives

 

[BobRyan]

It seems to be a pretty specific, ongoing (for 10 generations) and human-implemented punishment to cut off the child from the people because of the sin of the parents. Does anyone even remember some of the indiscretions your great great great grandparents did, let alone 10 generations up?

Ezek 18:

4 The soul who sins will die.

9 if he walks in My statutes and keeps My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will certainly live,” declares the Lord God.

10 “However, he may father a violent son who sheds blood, and does any one of these things to a brother 11 (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but raises his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, 13 lends money at interest and takes interest; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he shall certainly be put to death; his blood will be on himself.

14 “Now behold, he has fathered a son who saw all his father’s sins which he committed, but he has seen them and does not do likewise. ... executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s guilt, he will certainly live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his guilt.

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21 “But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

...make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”

 

[levnishbar]

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

OK thanks for the explanation. So it appears we have a bit of a contradiction in Scripture here. How do you reconcile it?

In modern Judaism the rabbis avoid this ethical dilemma by refusing to admit evidence that someone is an illegitimate child.

In my view, God sets out the law, and leaves room for man to show mercy. Likewise God tolerates a world right now with evil and poverty, to allow men the capacity to do justly and love mercy (Micah 6:8)

 

[Jamdoc]

Free will can exist if every possible choice that can be made is a good choice.

Some of the moral laws will simply be obeyed because disobeying them will be impossible.

the commandment against Murder will be impossible to obey if nobody can die for instance.

thievery and coveting both are impossible to do if God freely provides everything we need and we find ourselves lacking for nothing.

Sometimes I despair over things that I want but believe scripture says I won't have.

what the spirit hammers into me over and over and over again (and I still have trouble with it because of things that are seemingly explicitly not in existence on the New Earth) is...

Romans 8

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

and He separates it out, because I'm so slow to take it to heart and still have FOMO for things.

with him also

That is, some people teach that Jesus Himself is the reward, in entirety, that you just .. fall on your face and worship Him and I guess you believe you get some overwhelming stupor high that makes you unable to process anything else.. or something..
But God says with him also meaning that yes, you see Jesus face to face, but on top of that...

freely

Not reluctantly, not begrudgingly, not even like, waiting for you to ask for it.. but freely

give us all things

That is.. everything, everything good. No reason for FOMO..
even if I can't shake it because other verses in scripture seem to outright preclude some things.

Revelation 21

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Not just some things, but all things.

again I shouldn't have FOMO so I shouldn't covet things, but... there I am.. struggling with things that seem explicitly written off and wanting them.

anyway.. some free will exists because the sinful choices we can make now simply won't exist in eternity. Things are provided, and you won't be able to hurt others. You'll also know and love others more so the desire to do something against them won't exist.

Here we do some sins because we have valid needs that are not met, and try to meet them ourselves if they're not provided for, and the result is often sin, and we also don't love others like we should and so the result is we do things that do not take those people into account, we seek advantage over others.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I would posit that true freedom is not the freedom to do evil; it is freedom from the slavery that brings about evil. Sin isn't about freedom, just the opposite--sin is slavery. The man who lives in chains in a deep dark dungeon is not free, but a captive.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[levnishbar]

I would posit that true freedom is not the freedom to do evil; it is freedom from the slavery that brings about evil. Sin isn't about freedom, just the opposite--sin is slavery. The man who lives in chains in a deep dark dungeon is not free, but a captive.

-CryptoLutheran

The following Bible verse hits the nail on the head.

John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."

 

[Sheila Davis]

The NT gives the simple reason for unbelief in John 3:5; i.e., lack of new birth.

Doesn't that mean it's their choice? Doesn't one choose to accept Christ or not? In the Old Testament it is written choose this day when you will serve. God says he doesn't want any to be lost but it's their choice.

My view of John 3:5 is being born of water means from the womb and being born of the spirit is to accept His Holy Spirit. Though churches since the 1970s from my experience began to teach spiritual rebirth. Before the 1970s churches taught to be born of water was to be baptized, and to be born of the spirit was to accept the spirit of Christ.
Which I failed agree with and always felt there was more to it and water in the womb always came to mind - but I was young, what did I know.

Origin Of The Born Again Movement In A Nutshell


A question: your views on predestination - is it possible they are not predestined to accept Christ. Didn't He know us before we were born. We were given to Him by our Father and his sheep knows his voice John 10:20-28 _ 17:12/24 ? Jesus did say all that the Father has given Him He will not lose John 6:37-40

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT PREDESTINATION

I asked that question because that is a argument that they have used _ they will say God has already chosen to send us to hell.

 

[bling]

What is stopping another fall? Why are Christians promised ETERNAL life if God is just going to recreate everything and give us bodies like Adam and Eve had? To me it makes no sense that you can have free will over God's sovereignty because what is stopping another human being, angel, or other created being from wanting power? If our will is free in the Arminian sense, there is NOTHING stopping another fall because Adam and Eve were created perfect as well. The only reason they were allowed to sin was because God decreed it. God decrees no sin forever, than there will be no more sin forever.

Think about this question: What do we have as free will beings when going to heaven, which the free will angels before sinning did not have (or we might assume they did not have)?

1. The angels before sinning may not have had any experience with sin, the ability to sin and be redeemed might only be available on earth, thus did not have a good knowledge of sin and especially the individual impact on the sinner after sinning, this is similar to Adam and Eve before they sinned. In this way sin has purpose for mature adults.

2. Mature adults also have experience with satan’s evilness, one of the reasons satan is still around.

3. On earth we have a necessary and valuable survival instinct and an instinct to reproduce, which does produce a selfishness nature, but in heaven we are eternal and cannot reproduce, so there is no reason for these instincts.

4. Mature saved adults after sinning much creating an unbelievable huge debt automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) Luke 7, but that first requires sinning, again. This also is something Adam and Eve could not experience prior to sinning.

5. Mature adults also experience God’s forgiveness and have the free will ability to accept or reject God’s forgiveness.

6. While on earth we are sexual beings, able to experience or at least observe: family, children, reproduction, parental responsibility, oneness, and the conflicts that go along with being sexual beings.

7. In heaven we loss our sexuality (there is no reason to appropriate) so there is no reason to try and win a mate, be jealous of those competing for our potential mate. There is really no reason to be perceived as being better than we are.

8. There might not even be physical human like beauty in heaven (we might be able to change our looks to whatever we want).

9. There really may not be anything we would “want” that we do not already have. You might think while on earth: “I want to be my own God”, but what is a real God like (Christ), so do your want to be that servant of all, washing everyone’s feet? God Loves you more than you could ever Love Him back, so who is better off in that scenario? The person being sacrificially Loved is better than the person with less Love, Loving the Lover back. Yes, we worship Him out of our gratitude Godly type Love, but He Loves us more. Are you willing and wanting to go through all God has gone through, so you can be a god? The greater you are, the greater servant you are of others.

10. We also know what satan did in heaven and the results.

11. What in heaven would you “selfishly” want, if you really have all you want?

12. The biggest thing I see is us having the indwelling Holy Spirt, but in heaven we can see Him, we still have the free will to quench Him and go it on our own, why would we (do we want to be away from Him?)

13. At the alter/thrown we might also see Christ blood still dripping to help us not to forget.

14. Another huge factor is we will have the work we enjoy doing (helping others), this might mean we protect and preserve those who never had the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective while on earth and thus they do not have Godly type Love.

15. The tree of knowledge or something like it is not there to tempt us.

16. There are other factors, but this is off the top of my head.

 

[timothyu]

When man was expelled into this world from the Garden, we were removed from access to the Tree of Life.
Genesis3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
In the next life we supposedly have access to the Tree of Life, but do we have eternal life or only access which can be cut off at any time we step out of line, this time no banishment but instead elimination, the second death. Have we learned our lesson here? Is that incentive enough to not put our will ahead of the will of God when we supposedly now know better?