• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

how can the universe be 6000 years old.....

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheReasoner

Atheist. Former Christian.
Mar 14, 2005
10,294
684
Norway
✟37,162.00
Country
Norway
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
no--just been there, done that
This is not a personal attack, Archie.
I just think that in order for your posts to be respected and your opinions to be seen as valid, worthwhile points you need to listen to others, even if you disagree with the points made.

Just... Moderate your statements, and argue in a civilized manner. That means calm, collected, respecting and informative way.
So far, your posts come across in a very unpleasant manner, and this only serves to harm your case.
It is seen as evidence that you don't know what you are talking about. Your failure to comment seems arrogant and/or like a confirmation of lacking knowledge on the topic at hand.
 
Upvote 0

Rasta

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2007
6,274
184
42
✟29,944.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
What about the many dateing methods that we employ? How do you explain the exsistence of dinosaurs? Humans and dinosaurs did not even live at the same time as each other. (which is most likely why the Bible makes not even a single mention of the HUGE creatures that ruled the planet for millions of years)

We have evidence of earth going through an ice age. Scientist have agreed that this ended no sooner than 10,000 years ago. Why does the Bible make no mention of an ice age? Probably because it was written long after this event.

If large events can be proven to happen on earth, and man claims to have the "creation history" of earth. If the "creation history" does not match up with the physical evidence that we see, I think we have a strong case of the mythological nature of the creation story.
 
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
very simple: the creative act was a supernatural one which human investigation cannot comprehend nor measure correctly.

This is very simple. Scientists claim to have found a way to comprehend and measure things like fossil records, dating methods, light speed, distances, etc.. Now you, or someone who understands the subject, has to come up with evidence showing a plausible explination for a young earth or show how our methods used to date are flawed and incorrect then come up with the correct methods. You can't just say, "you must be wrong" and leave it at that. That's unacceptable for many of those who are not christians or those who are curious and searching. Offer something man.

going by human measurements and understanding, which are fallible, limited and so on one only receives a picture from the human perspective.
You have to show how those methods are fallible. Nobody's perfect, but that doesn't mean that we cant state with certainty that 2 + 2 = 4.

God does not do things according to human perspective but according to who He is and the power He possesses
OK. Still does not discount evidence. Show how the human perspective is flawed or demonstrate a better solution. You have to understand that scientists are saying "Hey here is how you measeure these things" or "This method is testable". Now you have to go through and show how thier model doenst work or have a better one yourself. Hey, sometimes defending God requires a little work.

when God created light , the stars, the moon the sun and so on, He was not limited by the human measurement of light speed.
This makes no sense. The speed of light is constant is it not? I can also say God isn't limited by our measurement of days then your whole argument falls apart.




All you have presented is problems. Offer up something.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
All you have presented is problems. Offer up something.

That sums up Creationism. You have the "professional Creationist" nitpickers at AIG and ICR. You have the amateur nitpickers on message boards. But the common theme is nitpicking. No research, no credibility - really nothing short of delusion to the point where it really seems a psychosis a la conspiracy theory zealots.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
very simple: the creative act was a supernatural one which human investigation cannot comprehend nor measure correctly.

going by human measurements and understanding, which are fallible, limited and so on one only receives a picture from the human perspective. God does not do things according to human perspective but according to who He is and the power He possesses

when God created light , the stars, the moon the sun and so on, He was not limited by the human measurement of light speed. creating something superaturally is not deceptive, for then all healings would be deceptive as well, it is creating supernaturally and putting all things into place to begin life on this planet.

i will stop there for now and wait for the critics to arrive

Recently I started a thread on the intelligibility of the universe.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5877328-the-intelligibility-of-the-universe.html

While I don't necessarily stand by the perspective of the researchers who produced Privileged Planet, I do like what they say about the universe being observable and intelligible. And it is intelligible both because God made us capable of understanding his creation and made his creation operate on the basis of discoverable, predictable, law-bound operations.

The intelligibility of the universe is a fundamental basis of all scientific work in the sense that scientists assume axiomatically that we can come to true conclusions about nature through the study of nature. We can do this because nature is intelligible.

That nature is intelligible is the foundational belief of the natural philosophy of the Middle Ages as expounded by theologians such as Thomas Aquinas. It is the fundamental basis from which scientists like Kepler and Newton constructed their theories and was accepted by the founders of modern thought like Francis Bacon and Descartes.

It is not an unquestionable proposition, as shown by Kant and others who questioned the foundations of our knowledge. But it is an axiom of scientific thinking and research.

It was accepted by Protestant evangelicals of the Common Sense tradition and that acceptance led many 18th and 19th century evangelicals into an eager pursuit of science in the firm belief that through science they were thinking God's thoughts after him. The second line in my signature is a modern reiteration of their perspective.

By contrast, today's creationism, especially YECism, must deny this proposition. Since nature as we understand it denies basic YEC beliefs, it must follow, if YEC is true, that God did not make his creation intelligible to his creatures--not even those made in his own image.

In the post above, I have highlighted the phrases that present this case: that we human creatures cannot possibly understand the world God created. It is forever opaque and obscure to our observation and reasoning.

While archeologist is somewhat extreme in his POV, I have seen this same basic belief presented again and again by YECists. It flies in the face of 2,000 years of main-stream Christian philosophy, and, I dare say, in the face of God's own revelation in scripture.

I firmly believe in the intelligibility of the universe. I firmly believe God did not make rational creatures to inhabit an irrational universe, but a universe accessible to the rational mind.

That doesn't mean that I think rationality is the be-all and end-all or that it is infallibly right in every instance. It certainly does not replace faith.

But it is an important component of how we relate to God and God's creation. Therefore, I believe that evidence means something true about created nature. A truth that is of God, as all truth is of God. And because that truth is of God, it must be reconcilable with the truth of scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That sums up Creationism. You have the "professional Creationist" nitpickers at AIG and ICR.

Funny you mentioned them. I just ran across these two groups today while browsing around. Never heard of em before though.
 
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Funny you mentioned them. I just ran across these two groups today while browsing around. Never heard of em before though.

Just looked at their references for their articles. Found 1 reference newer than 1999 and it was from 2001. Are their references outdated?







EDIT: That was from AiG. I didn't go look at ICR.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Just looked at their references for their articles. Found 1 reference newer than 1999 and it was from 2001. Are their references outdated?

Common creationist scam trick. Reference research from decades ago so as to make it look like things are still misunderstood or there is a heated scientific debate on the topic.

I had someone link an article on evolution from a creationist website recently - and the main quote they were using from a biologist was from a 1929 textbook.
 
Upvote 0

Rudolph Hucker

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2007
1,540
332
Canberra ACT
✟26,803.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
these are such ridiculous arguments and aren't worth the time to go through again.
Plato had some problems with that reasoning 500 years ago, but it was, or course, eventually accepted.

In a few quarters, Darwin still has the same problems, but for the most part has been generally accepted.
 
Upvote 0

MrSnow

Senior Member
May 30, 2007
891
89
✟23,977.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Something in particular in this thread caught my attention above anything else, and that is the idea of the universe possessing maturity.

I have reached the age of puberty. I have lived a few years past that. I have hair on my chest and my face (well, I am able to grow hair on my face, but I am required to shave for work). My wife is pregnant, thus showing that I am able to reproduce (and I have no reason to think that the child is not mine, making my claim of being able to reproduce null and void). So basically, by physical standards, I am "mature". I have progressed from a state of immaturity to a state of maturity. I have come to a place in which I am supposed to be. It is a physical goal to which it is normal and natural (and expected) to attain.

I have no problem with God making Adam physically mature. If Adam were created as a baby, he couldn't survive (unless God directly cared for him, nurturing him till he was strong enough to get food for himself). So it would be sensical that if Adam had no parents, then he would need to be "mature" in order to survive.

But the idea of "maturity" only applies to life forms which develop from simplicity to maturity. Life forms NEED to be mature. But explain how the moon is "mature". Explain how hydrogen is "mature". Explain how a supernova is "mature". Is there an intended form which a gas is supposed to take before it can function? How do objects that are not alive and do not change to achieve a certain state of being "mature"? What would a mature comet look like? What is maturity to the non-living?

To say that the universe is "mature" is nonsense. There is no such thing as "maturity" to something that is not alive.

A mature human is something that can be. Humans can be mature. Gases cannot be. Light cannot be. The fabric of space-time cannot be.

Thus we come to the statement "God created mankind with maturity, so it makes sense that He would create the rest of the universe with maturity". No, it doesn't make sense, for it cannot be.
 
Upvote 0

MrSnow

Senior Member
May 30, 2007
891
89
✟23,977.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
To address another issue that was brought up in this thread:

In Joshua, God caused the sun to stand still for one day in order that the Israelites could have victory. Let's ignore what we "think we know" about the solar system for a sec here. Based upon this text, the sun is able to stand still. It is also inferred from the text that the sun is an object in the sky that goes up, then comes back down on the other side. So, scripture teaches us that the sun is an object in the sky that rises and falls, and which God is able to cause to not move.

What does "science" teach us? It teaches us, in the words of Pumba, that "the sun is a huge ball of gas burning millions of miles away". Then again, to him, EVERYTHING is gas. Science teaches us that the earth revolves around this huge ball of burning gas. It teaches us that the earth rotates upon an axis, and it is this rotation that causes the appearance of a rising and setting sun.

So whom should we believe? Should I believe the Bible or science? Should I believe that which I can see, or that which is revealed to me by God?

This is obviously ridiculous. No one (to my knowledge) in his right mind would say that the sun is an object that lives in the sky which rises and falls on the other side. But that is the language that scripture uses. Now IF it were proven that the universe were 15 billion years old, would that mean that that portion of Genesis were wrong? Well, is that portion of Joshua "wrong"? Did God do something? Yes. Did He stop the sun? No.

Our interpretation of many passages of Scripture is colored by what science has taught us. That story in Joshua is a prime example. We interpret it based on what science has taught us about the solar system. Would it therefore be wrong to interpret the beginning of Genesis in light of what science discovers? We do it everywhere else. This, of course, begs the question: "what is science telling us about the age and history of the universe?" I am not proposing an answer to that question. All I'm saying is that to denounce interpreting Genesis in light of what someone believes science has discovered to be true is hyprocisy, for we do it all the time with countless other passages of Scripture.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.