How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[Marvin Knox]

I believe you are a little confused here Marvin. You say we can resist His grace,

Of course I do.

I made it very clear that I do believe that both regenerate and unregenerate men can resist the grace of God.

The entire concept of punishment for the unregenerate and loss at the Judgment Seat depend on that idea.

Believers are told in the epistles to "yield" to the Holy Spirit in sanctification. If one does "not" yield - he is by definition resisting.

Are you now a 3-point Calvinist?

I'd prefer to no go by the name Calvinist at all. As a matter of fact I'd prefer that many who go by that name didn't.

Reason being that Calvin did not believe in limited atonement.

You disagree with this as stated in red above.

My statement in red is a disagreement with the idea that saved men cannot resist grace at all. This is clearly wrong.

It is because it is wrong that no Calvinist that I know of would say such a thing - nor do they.

On the other hand I (we?) do agree with the "I" in T.U.L.I.P. because it says no such thing.

Do you see the 'I' in TULIP?

Yes I do and I know exactly what it means and does not means.

Did you even read the article on T.U.L.I.P. which you referenced?

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

I'll print out the pertinent section for you since you obviously didn't have the time to read it in the article itself.

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

As I have clearly stated several times now - the doctrine of irresistible grace in the acronym T.U.L.I.P. is limited to grace related to the effectual calling of the elect by God.

It is extended to no other area of His grace (such as sanctification) nor was it meant to by the original writers.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You agree that a man must seek the narrow path which leads to life? If so, you agree that a man must do something to find that path to life.

Yes, Of course I do.

Jesus did not say the grace is irresistible.

Yes, Of course He did.

The Father's giving of us to the Son is an act of grace and Jesus said that it was something that guarantees that such men will come to the Lord.

Other areas of grace extended to men by God are to be considered separately.

Therefore man created that grace is irresistible.

Of course men created the acronym T.U.L.I.P. to represent doctrines that they felt the Bible teaches.

Whether or not the "I" represents a doctrine so taught is a discussion we have been having.

Since Calvinistic irresistible grace doctrine is meant to and does extend only to grace pertaining to basic salvation and not to other areas necessarily - it has been easy to show from a few verses where it is a proper acronym for the Biblical doctrine.

If one does not take up his cross and follow Jesus, he is not worthy of Him.
Did you take up your cross, Marvin? It doesn't matter if you believe in election and predestination, you must take up your cross and follow Him. You see, you must do something to be worthy of Him.

Yes I do. I assume you are saying that you do as well.

Everyone agrees with the Lord's words here. Do you know of any Calvinist who does not?

Is that a 'so what' with you?

The so what question concerned why you keep throwing up scriptures which all agree with as if they were to convince some of something they did not already believe.

What I am asking you is what that thing is.

What question? If you don't take up your own cross, you are not worthy of Him, and you are resisting His grace. Is that simple enough?

Very simple. That's why there is no disagreement on the matter.

The questions are "What's the point of listing all those scriptures which everyone agrees with?" and "Are you insinuating that Calvinists don't agree with what the Lord said in those verses?

So, do you believe His grace can be resisted or is it irresistible?

As the article you provided clearly shows us - regarding initial salvation - NO - regarding the sanctification process - YES.

I should think that most Calvinists would agree with both the article you provided and me.

I believe Jesus said you were 'unwilling' to come to Me that you may have life. Didn't He?

Yes He did. And - here we go again - "And your point is?"

Where in the Bible do you get 'effectual' calling? Is an 'effectual' call against man's will? Can he not choose against it?

John 1, John 6, Romans 8 and any number of other places.

It is a clear and unavoidable teaching in the scriptures.

The effectual call includes regeneration of the Spirit and no he cannot choose against it.

It is against the will of the old man. The new man thanks God every day for His grace in making him a new creation.

So Marvin, did you willingly come to Jesus? Or were you coerced?

I willingly came to Jesus and I thank God every day that He created in me a new man who would come to Jesus just as the Father said that I would.

This is getting to be too much.

Are you laboring under the idea that every time the word "life" is used it can only be referring to the initial spark of regeneration to the dead spirit of a man? I hope not. That would really end up with a weird theology.

If that were the case - how could we be regenerated in the initial sense every time we partake of the Words of Jesus (which are Spirit and life) as we are told to do?

You need to take a good class in systematic theology.

Until then - I just can't deal any more for now with your absolute lack of balance concerning the doctrines of grace in the scriptures.

Nor will I deal with your unwillingness to understand what Calvinists teach before you attempt to critique their teachings.

 

[Tinyarch]

I do not go along with the doctrine of original sin where even an unborn baby is a sinner, so we all start out as children of God (as Paul described us), but we are the children of who we obey, so when we start sinning we become children of satan.[/B]

I read through the past 10 pages or more to get a feel for the different positions being argued. The above quote is concerning to me as it denies original sin as presented in Genesis. It also goes against scientific research, which shows that infants can begin lying by 6 months of age.

It explains the doctrine of free will, believed by bling, in that if you start out perfect and then choose sin, you could then, theoretically, choose to not sin and make yourself perfect by your own works.

What I don't understand is how grace can be grace if a person makes the choice to follow God.

Grace is defined as: God giving to us what we don't deserve.

How can it be grace if we grab ahold of God when we don't deserve it? Why wouldn't God just shrug off someone who grabs hold of God by their own effort? How is a person's effort to choose God an act of God's grace? It doesn't make sense.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What I don't understand is how grace can be grace if a person makes the choice to follow God.

Grace is defined as: God giving to us what we don't deserve.

How can it be grace if we grab ahold of God when we don't deserve it? Why wouldn't God just shrug off someone who grabs hold of God by their own effort? How is a person's effort to choose God an act of God's grace? It doesn't make sense.

Well, you got close !
Remember simple SCRIPTURE: YHWH gives us BOTH the desire to seek HIM, and the ability to choose HIM.
The FAITH is, we get to decide/choose whether we want to TRUST YHWH and Y'SHUA, or trust anyone or anything else.

Those who CHOOSE to collect anything else as their treasure,
to trust anyone or anything else,
don't get the reward of FAITH in Y'SHUA. THEY had the chance, and DECIDED against Y'SHUA.

 

[Tinyarch]

Well, you got close !
Remember simple SCRIPTURE: YHWH gives us BOTH the desire to seek HIM, and the ability to choose HIM.
The FAITH is, we get to decide/choose whether we want to TRUST YHWH and Y'SHUA, or trust anyone or anything else.

Those who CHOOSE to collect anything else as their treasure,
to trust anyone or anything else,
don't get the reward of FAITH in Y'SHUA. THEY had the chance, and DECIDED against Y'SHUA.

Doesn't the Bible say that God gives us faith? How can we choose to have it if God gives it? It would seem that God chooses to give faith to someone, which seems opposite of what you have stated.

 

[EmSw]

Since Calvinistic irresistible grace doctrine is meant to and does extend only to grace pertaining to basic salvation and not to other areas necessarily - it has been easy to show from a few verses where it is a proper acronym for the Biblical doctrine.

So grace means one thing here and another there? What a fallacious concept. Grace is grace!

Are you laboring under the idea that every time the word "life" is used it can only be referring to the initial spark of regeneration to the dead spirit of a man? I hope not. That would really end up with a weird theology.

Who is life for, a dead man or one who is alive? Of course it refers to regeneration. Jesus said there is a narrow path which leads to life, which is regeneration. And few will find it.

You need to take a good class in systematic theology.

I've told you before, I choose not to have anything to do with systematic theology. Why do keep bringing this up? Systematic theology is dead, unfit, unworthy, and useless to me.

 

[EmSw]

I read through the past 10 pages or more to get a feel for the different positions being argued. The above quote is concerning to me as it denies original sin as presented in Genesis. It also goes against scientific research, which shows that infants can begin lying by 6 months of age.

You had your original sin, just as everyone else has.

Infants cannot even talk at 6 months, much less lie. What scientific research are you reading?

It explains the doctrine of free will, believed by bling, in that if you start out perfect and then choose sin, you could then, theoretically, choose to not sin and make yourself perfect by your own works.

Do you choose to sin? James 1 tells us why man sins.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Nothing is said about Adam's original sin...NOTHING!

What I don't understand is how grace can be grace if a person makes the choice to follow God.

Grace is defined as: God giving to us what we don't deserve.

Why do people make a fuss about following and obeying God as if one is cursed if he chooses to do so? So if a man chooses to follow God, he is outside of grace, correct? What does grace teach us?

How can it be grace if we grab ahold of God when we don't deserve it? Why wouldn't God just shrug off someone who grabs hold of God by their own effort? How is a person's effort to choose God an act of God's grace? It doesn't make sense.

Grace does not make man do anything. Man has to do it willingly of his own effort, or it doesn't get done.

 

[Tinyarch]

Systematic theology is dead, unfit, unworthy, and useless to me.

Why?

What do you see as alive, fit, worthy and useful?

 

[Tinyarch]

You had your original sin, just as everyone else has.

Infants cannot even talk at 6 months, much less lie. What scientific research are you reading?



Do you choose to sin? James 1 tells us why man sins.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Nothing is said about Adam's original sin...NOTHING!



Why do people make a fuss about following and obeying God as if one is cursed if he chooses to do so? So if a man chooses to follow God, he is outside of grace, correct? What does grace teach us?



Grace does not make man do anything. Man has to do it willingly of his own effort, or it doesn't get done.

Here's the link regarding 6 month olds lying.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...9/Babies-not-as-innocent-as-they-pretend.html

Please define grace. I wonder if you and I define it differently.

 

[Tinyarch]

Here's the link regarding 6 month olds lying.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...9/Babies-not-as-innocent-as-they-pretend.html

Please define grace. I wonder if you and I define it differently.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

It seems that Romans 5:12 says that original sin matters.

 

[EmSw]

Why?

What do you see as alive, fit, worthy and useful?

The Holy Spirit.

 

[EmSw]

Here's the link regarding 6 month olds lying.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...9/Babies-not-as-innocent-as-they-pretend.html

Perhaps this researcher does not know what lying is.

Infants quickly learnt that using tactics such as fake crying and pretend laughing could win them attention. By eight months, more difficult deceptions became apparent, such as concealing forbidden activities or trying to distract parents' attention.

Do you know that lying comes from the lips?

Researchers quickly learn that making up stuff (which is lying) that others like, will get them more research money.

 

[Inkfingers]

Is the grace of God irresistible as the "I" in TULIP proclaims?

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?

God chooses to make some resist and some not.

Hence he hardened the heart of Pharaoh and puts faith in the heart of believers.

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:21-23)

 

[EmSw]

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

It seems that Romans 5:12 says that original sin matters.

It says death came to all people, BECAUSE all sinned. It's your sin which brings death.

 

[bottomofsandal]

What I don't understand is how grace can be grace if a person makes the choice to follow God.

Grace is defined as: God giving to us what we don't deserve.

How can it be grace if we grab ahold of God when we don't deserve it? Why wouldn't God just shrug off someone who grabs hold of God by their own effort? How is a person's effort to choose God an act of God's grace? It doesn't make sense.

Welcome to the thread!

Puzzling positions indeed..without grace there cannot be any salvation---Ephesians 2:8

It is hard to understand what grace even does in some povs.. Is grace necessary to all povs?

 

[bottomofsandal]

Grace does not make man do anything. Man has to do it willingly of his own effort, or it doesn't get done.

WHAT? ...not of yourself, so no one can boast!

That's in The Bible!

 

[bottomofsandal]

Do you know that lying comes from the lips?

What? The Bible disagrees with you!

The heart is deceitful above all things.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks (Matthew 12:34)


You gotta quit making stuff up bro.
Can you please stick to God's Holy Word and not you pretend fairy tale opinions are truth?

 

[bottomofsandal]

Please define grace. I wonder if you and I define it differently.

...let me get some popcorn

 

[bottomofsandal]

God chooses to make some resist and some not.

Hence he hardened the heart of Pharaoh and puts faith in the heart of believers.

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:21-23)

Welcome to the thread!

There has been reluctance of some here to address Romans 9 (and other passages!)

Prepare for the perpetual barrage of freewill, works, Pelagianism, fables, and man's supreme choice.

 

[EmSw]

Welcome to the thread!

Puzzling positions indeed..without grace there cannot be any salvation---Ephesians 2:8

It is hard to understand what grace even does in some povs.. Is grace necessary to all povs?

Without humility, there cannot be any grace---James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5

Here is what grace does - it teaches us how we should live.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;