How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[EmSw]

WHAT? ...not of yourself, so no one can boast!

That's in The Bible!

No one is boasting.

 

[EmSw]

What? The Bible disagrees with you!

Do you have any children? Did any of them lie to you? What was the first lie you heard from your six-month old?

The heart is deceitful above all things.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks (Matthew 12:34)

A six-month does not speak; talk about fairy tales.

Yes, the heart is deceitful, but look what the Bible says:

Matthew 23
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus said to cleanse first that which is within, that is, the heart.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James tells sinners to cleanse their hands and purify their hearts.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel tells us to cast away all our transgressions, and make ourselves a new heart.

Have you cleansed your heart, purified your heart, and made yourself a new heart by casting away all your transgressions? If not, then your heart will stay deceitful.

You gotta quit making stuff up bro.
Can you please stick to God's Holy Word and not you pretend fairy tale opinions are truth?

I gave you God's Holy Word; let's see if you believe what it says.

 

[Tinyarch]

It says death came to all people, BECAUSE all sinned. It's your sin which brings death.

It says sin entered the world through one man. This means there is an original sin. This also means that it is our nature to sin and therefore our sin which sentences us to death.

What, therefore, is grace?

 

[Tinyarch]

...let me get some popcorn

Yes, it would seem that in over 150 pages grace could be defined. Why has it taken so long?

Grace is something that God extends to people when they don't deserve it.

How can anyone call choosing God an act of God's grace? I am trying to wrap my mind around how our choice becomes grace?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you have any children? Did any of them lie to you? What was the first lie you heard from your six-month old?

I had four children, all full grown and doing very well.

While they were at home, they never lied to me, ever.
They were trained "in the way that they should go" as it is written in SCRIPTURE (YHWH'S WORD/ INSTRUCTIONS/ DIRECTIONS).

Did your family routinely lie ?

 

[Tinyarch]

You claim the Holy Spirit is alive, fit, worthy and useful. Good. So does everyone else who claims to be a Christian. Yet, here we are in disagreement.
Are you claiming a deeper discernment from the Holy Spirit than others who disagree with you? Does your relationship with the Holy Spirit make your comments infallible?

From what I have read, you have constructed an argument based upon your own theology and feelings about the Bible. It may not be systematic, but it is certainly your constructed theology. Whether the Holy Spirit is guiding you is up for debate. You deny original sin despite Genesis showing us original sin and Romans 5 confirming it.

It is debatable that the Holy Spirit is guiding you in this argument.

You haven't ever defined grace.

The Holy Spirit.

Systematic theology is dead, unfit, unworthy, and useless to me.

Why?

What do you see as alive, fit, worthy and useful?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, it would seem that in over 150 pages grace could be defined. Why has it taken so long?

In thousands of years, the people of the book did not define faith (and few westerners or americans etc ever find out what it is).
They simply lived it, and 'knew' it as part of their lives, joyously and peacefully, by grace as YHWH PLANNED.

When the world hates YHWH, as it does, don't expect to find much in the world from YHWH as a source. Evil? all over.
The narrow road ? Still narrow, and few find it.

 

[Tinyarch]

EmSw, A 6 month old doesn't need to speak a language to be untruthful.

Please read the link I provided.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...9/Babies-not-as-innocent-as-they-pretend.html

You and I can lie without ever saying a word.

 

[bottomofsandal]

It says sin entered the world through one man. This means there is an original sin. This also means that it is our nature to sin and therefore our sin which sentences us to death.

What, therefore, is grace?

Grace is obvious to the man who recognizes his sinfulness and need for God's grace and mercy.

The Pelagians believe they are not born sinful per Romans 5, rather man is born slightly "injured".

Such terms as bent away from God, sin nature, born at enmity with God, man's fall, etc do not resonate.


IOW, man has enough left in the tank to save himself by choosing wisely without God"s intervention.

 

[Tinyarch]

Grace is obvious to the man who recognizes his sinfulness and need for God's grace and mercy.

The Pelagians believe they are not born sinful per Romans 5, rather man is born slightly "injured".

Such terms as bent away from God, sin nature, born at enmity with God, man's fall, etc do not resonate.


IOW, man has enough left in the tank to save himself by choosing wisely without God"s intervention.

Thank you for the comment about Pelagians. Are you inferring that EmSw is a Pelagian?

Your first paragraph seems odd in that you seem to define grace by merely calling it obvious. That seems to be no definition at all. Can you clarify please.

 

[Tinyarch]

Would this definition of grace be accurate?

http://m.christianity.com/theology/what-is-grace.html

 

[Marvin Knox]

So grace means one thing here and another there? What a fallacious concept. Grace is grace!

No big dig meant at all here - really.

But that's another of your absolutely ridiculous comments.

No one said that grace means one thing here and another thing there. Where on earth did you get that?

Assume for a moment that grace means something like "undeserved favor".

Our physical life is by grace. The air we breath since sinning against the provider of all things is by grace. Food is by grace.

Regeneration is by grace. Sanctification is by grace. Resurrection is by grace - and so on and so forth.

Some grace is resistible (as you must fully agree not being a Calvinist). Food is resistible for instance. So is the grace that leads us to obey the Lord throughout our Christian walk. You must agree with that considering your constant admonition to choose good rather than evil when the Lord leads us toward that good by His grace.

Some grace is irresistible as common sense can see when dealing with life itself. The Calvinist position as taught by T.U.L.I.P. is that initial regeneration (in it's most basic sense) is not resistible. Many scriptures teach that as the article that you yourself provided for us lists for us.

One more time since you just won't admit when you have made a mistake.

The Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace has to do with initial life being given by God. It has nothing to do with making the right choices in life being irresistible.

You questioned why I could say that some grace was resistible and that some was not and still call myself a Calvinist. I don't call myself a Calvinist as a matter of fact. But be that as it may - this should explain how it is that I believe in resistible grace in one instance and irresistible grace in another instance.

The definition of grace remains the same. The instances of grace being considered change.

You didn't apparently understand these concepts - which is why I explained them to you with such patience. As always, however, rather than simply saying "Oh I see where I went wrong." - you come back with silliness.

You simply will not be corrected on Calvinistic beliefs. And yet you continue to critique what amounts to straw men.

A simple "Oh I see where I went wrong." would be appropriate right now. If none is forthcoming after all this explanation by me - we will end things here since you are obviously in a prideful mood today.

Who is life for, a dead man or one who is alive? Of course it refers to regeneration. Jesus said there is a narrow path which leads to life, which is regeneration. And few will find it.

Life is for both kinds of men. One needs to be brought to life by the initial imparting of life by God. The other needs life ongoing in the form of the Word of God. The scriptures are clear on that.

You seem to ignore that this ongoing life sustenance is meant at times in the scriptures. You seem to place every reference to the giving of life in the category of the initial spark of life in a previously dead person.

That's where you seem to go wrong. You have ended up with a convoluted conception of the salvation process wherein a person completely loses the Spirit every time he sins and gains the Spirit again when he repents.

You ignore the passages that say things like "I will never leave you nor forsake you", "He will never again come into condemnation after passing from death to life" and all the rest of such.

I've told you before, I choose not to have anything to do with systematic theology. Why do keep bringing this up? Systematic theology is dead, unfit, unworthy, and useless to me.

That's you're problem. You will not approach the scripture the way Jesus and Paul did - in a systematic way letting scripture define scripture.

You don't get to just take things out of context and isolated from what has been taught before that just as you wish. Which is exactly what you do.

You don't get to just poke around the scriptures taking a little from here and a little from there and conveniently ignoring those doctrines which interfere with the way you believe things ought to be.

I've corrected you many times before on this and you simply will not be taught.

You do the same with scripture as you do with Calvinistic teachings. You simply present it the way you think it should be taught and then refuse to be corrected when it is obvious that you are wrong.

What bothers me is not that you are mistaken on some points of theology. What bothers me is that the area where you are mistaken lend themselves to the teaching of a false gospel - one based on works rather than grace.

 

[bottomofsandal]

No big dig meant at all here - really.

But that's another of your absolutely ridiculous comments.

No one said that grace means one thing here and another thing there. Where on earth did you get that?

Assume for a moment that grace means something like "undeserved favor".

Our physical life is by grace. The air we breath since sinning against the provider of all things is by grace. Food is by grace.

Regeneration is by grace. Sanctification is by grace. Resurrection is by grace - and so on and so forth.

Some grace is resistible (as you must fully agree not being a Calvinist). Food is resistible for instance. So is the grace that leads us to obey the Lord throughout our Christian walk. You must agree with that considering your constant admonition to choose good rather than evil when the Lord leads us toward that good by His grace.

Some grace is irresistible as common sense can see when dealing with life itself. The Calvinist position as taught by T.U.L.I.P. is that initial regeneration (in it's most basic sense) is not resistible. Many scriptures teach that as the article that you yourself provided for us lists for us.

One more time since you just won't admit when you have made a mistake.

The Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace has to do with initial life being given by God. It has nothing to do with making the right choices in life being irresistible.

You questioned why I could say that some grace was resistible and that some was not and still call myself a Calvinist. I don't call myself a Calvinist as a matter of fact. But be that as it may - this should explain how it is that I believe in resistible grace in one instance and resistible grace in another instance.

The definition of grace remains the same. The instances of grace being considered change.

You didn't apparently understand these concepts - which is why I explained them to you with such patience. As always, however, rather than simply saying "Oh I see where I went wrong." - you come back with silliness.

You simply will not be corrected on Calvinistic beliefs. And yet you continue to critique what amounts to straw men.

A simple "Oh I see where I went wrong." would be appropriate right now. If non is forthcoming after all this explanation by me - we will end things here since you are obviously in a prideful mood today.
Life is for both kinds of men. One needs to be brought to life by the initial imparting of life by God. The other needs life ongoing in the form of the Word of God. The scriptures are clear on that.

You seem to ignore that this ongoing life sustenance is meant at times in the scriptures. You seem to place every reference to the giving of life in the category of the initial spark of life in a previously dead person.

That's where you seem to go wrong. You have ended up with a convoluted conception of the salvation process wherein a person completely loses the Spirit every time he sins and gains the Spirit again when he repents.

You ignore the passages that say things like "I will never leave you nor forsake you", "He will never again come into condemnation after passing from death to life" and all the rest of such.

That's you're problem. You will not approach the scripture the way Jesus and Paul did - in a systematic way letting scripture define scripture.

You don't get to just take things out of context and isolated from what has been taught before that just as you wish. Which is exactly what you do.

You don't get to just poke around the scriptures taking a little from here and a little from there and conveniently ignoring those doctrines which interfere with the way you believe things ought to be.

I've corrected you many times before on this and you simply will not be taught.

You do the same with scripture as you do with Calvinistic teachings. You simply present it the way you think it should be taught and then refuse to be corrected when it is obvious that you are wrong.

What bothers me is not that you are mistaken on some points of theology. What bothers me is that the area where you are mistaken lend themselves to the teaching of a false gospel - one based on works rather than grace.

Awesome post brother!

Your patience is filled with loving-kindness (1 Cor 13)

 

[bottomofsandal]

Would this definition of grace be accurate?

http://m.christianity.com/theology/what-is-grace.html

Good points. I say obvious because either we understand or we fail to grasp God's grace.
The gospel is called the Gospel of grace. That to me is obvious. I like this sentiment below---


"Grace is most needed and best understood in the midst of sin, suffering, and brokenness. We live in a world of earning, deserving, and merit, and these result in judgment. That is why everyone wants and needs grace. Judgment kills. Only grace makes alive."
http://m.christianity.com/theology/what-is-grace.html


When a man sees himself and his sinfulness rightly, he proclaims God's grace the loudest.

When a man keeps insisting he chose, his works count, and his achieved humility matters...it amazes

 

[Marvin Knox]

Awesome post brother! Your patience is filled with loving-kindness (1 Cor 13)

Thank you brother. But not always I'm afraid.

I suppose I could provide a dozen scriptures to make the point. But just a few will suffice to show the difference between resistible grace and irresistible grace.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......"

Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Ephesians 2:5 "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 1:3 “who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

RESISTIBLE GRACE

Titus 2:11,12 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world”

Acts 7:51 “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

Ephesians 4:30 "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Romans 12:1 "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

This isn't spiritual rocket science. Ray Charles could see these doctrines in the scriptures.

 

[EmSw]

It says sin entered the world through one man. This means there is an original sin. This also means that it is our nature to sin and therefore our sin which sentences us to death.

What, therefore, is grace?

Well, since it is your nature to sin, are you lying to me?

Grace is to find favor in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[EmSw]

No big dig meant at all here - really.

But that's another of your absolutely ridiculous comments.

No one said that grace means one thing here and another thing there. Where on earth did you get that?

You may be able to deceive some on here, but I'm not buying it. You say some grace is irresistible and some resistible. That is what is ridiculous.

Grace in the eyes of God is found. Read your Old Testament. Grace does not change! How do you suppose one finds grace? Read your Bible; use your 'systematic theology'. Compare scripture with scripture. Noah found grace; it wasn't conferred upon him randomly. So tell me, how is grace found, how did Noah find grace?

 

[Tinyarch]

Thank you brother. But not always I'm afraid.

I suppose I could provide a dozen scriptures to make the point. But just a few will suffice to show the difference between resistible grace and irresistible grace.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......"

Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Ephesians 2:5 "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 1:3 “who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

RESISTIBLE GRACE

Titus 2:11,12 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world”

Acts 7:51 “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

Ephesians 4:30 "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Romans 12:1 "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

This isn't spiritual rocket science. Ray Charles could see these doctrines in the scriptures.

Does this fit with the concept of "already, not yet?"

 

[Tinyarch]

Well, since it is your nature to sin, are you lying to me?

Grace is to find favor in the eyes of the Lord.

I don't understand the question.

My interpretation of your second comment:
Grace = Doing something that God likes.

Is that an accurate statement regarding your definition of grace?

 

[EmSw]

I don't understand the question.

My interpretation of your second comment:
Grace = Doing something that God likes.

Is that an accurate statement regarding your definition of grace?

Read the Old Testament and tell me what grace is. It's finding favor is the eyes of the Lord. How does one find favor in the eyes of the Lord?