How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[ToBeLoved]

Revelation of YHWH'S PLAN: You do realize that YHWH knew everything before creating anything , right ? YHWH knew everything from beginning to end about everything and everyone who ever exists, before HE created all the universe and the earth and life.

And you realize that just because God knows all does not mean that He has decided the outcome of each person's life.

Knowing is not the same as predestining some to hell. Can you understand that? Free-will was shown in the garden that God allowed Adam & Eve to disobey Him.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm sorry but you have no scripture to support what you say and much of it doesn't make sense as we are discussing a certain topic in the Bible and not the entire Bible itself.
I'm not sure that you are following the thread.

No worries.
Unless someone accepts YHWH'S WORD as PERFECT, from YHWH,
and
YHWH as PERFECT,
and seeks HIM and keeps seeking HIM,
they don't know either in full nor in part.
IT is ALL verified IN HIS WORD. ALL of HIS WORD.(not just a few verses)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And you realize that just because God knows all does not mean that He has decided the outcome of each person's life.

HE schedules everyone's life PERFECTLY. No, not everyone (an understatement)
learns or goes along with HIS schedule OR HIS PLAN(in Y'SHUA). They have free will and HE never forces them to go against their will, nor coerces their will.

HE KNOWS THE OUTCOME of everyone; of every person's life.
HE HAS ALWAYS KNOWN the outcome of every person's life.
There is no exception.

Knowing is not the same as predestining some to hell. Can you understand that? Free-will was shown in the garden that God allowed Adam & Eve to disobey Him.

People /sinful men/ define predestining differently amongst themselves.
That is nothing to determine or test or judge anything by.

YHWH knew perfectly well every ADAM and HAVAH (EVE) were going to do.
HE knows perfectly well everything you and I were ever going to do , or did.
Nothing escapes HIS PERFECT WISDOM AND KNOWING.

 

[ToBeLoved]

HE schedules everyone's life PERFECTLY. No, not everyone (an understatement)
learns or goes along with HIS schedule OR HIS PLAN(in Y'SHUA). They have free will and HE never forces them to go against their will, nor coerces their will.

HE KNOWS THE OUTCOME of everyone; of every person's life.
HE HAS ALWAYS KNOWN the outcome of every person's life.
There is no exception.

People /sinful men/ define predestining differently amongst themselves.
That is nothing to determine or test or judge anything by.

YHWH knew perfectly well every ADAM and HAVAH (EVE) were going to do.
HE knows perfectly well everything you and I were ever going to do , or did.
Nothing escapes HIS PERFECT WISDOM AND KNOWING.

Sounds like you are not a Calvinist, yet you are agreeing with some of their posts. Confusing.

But I agree with you that God knows the outcome of all of our lives. God does not have a past, present and future. That is our understanding because on earth we have time.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sounds like you are not a Calvinist, yet you are agreeing with some of their posts. Confusing.

But I agree with you that God knows the outcome of all of our lives. God does not have a past, present and future. That is our understanding because on earth we have time.

It may surprise you that even the scribes and pharisees got some things right.
So why shouldn't the ones you call 'calvinist' get some things (or more) right ?
I don't care to know what 'calvinist' nor 'armenians' nor any group per se posts,
because it is not vital nor important here, and anyway cannot be addressed properly if something is wrong with it, unless they post something specifically that is apparently in error, right ?
I am glad you are actually reading the posts now (and earlier), and can tell that I am not speaking nor posting as a calvinist, but simply from the BIBLE and the GOSPEL of Y'SHUA(JESUS).

Some of what you post I agree with. Does that surprise the calvinists? I don't know - I actually have no idea of anything specific.

Just noticed the last part of the post, just now after typing all this previous 'till here:

"That is our understanding because on earth we have time."

This distinction is perhaps very critical to at least accept , "by FAITH"? in Y'SHUA,
and seeking HIS TRUTH, as always.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It may surprise you that even the scribes and pharisees got some things right.
So why shouldn't the ones you call 'calvinist' get some things (or more) right ?
I don't care to know what 'calvinist' nor 'armenians' nor any group per se posts,
because it is not vital nor important here, and anyway cannot be addressed properly if something is wrong with it, unless they post something specifically that is apparently in error, right ?
I am glad you are actually reading the posts now (and earlier), and can tell that I am not speaking nor posting as a calvinist, but simply from the BIBLE and the GOSPEL of Y'SHUA(JESUS).

Some of what you post I agree with. Does that surprise the calvinists? I don't know - I actually have no idea of anything specific.

Just noticed the last part of the post, just now after typing all this previous 'till here:

"That is our understanding because on earth we have time."

This distinction is perhaps very critical to at least accept , "by FAITH"? in Y'SHUA,
and seeking HIS TRUTH, as always.

Why are you on a thread that is debating Calvinist doctrine then? Would seem that you would have a position either way.

I guess you don't have to have a position. I agree that the Bible is the Word of God and infallible.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why are you on a thread that is debating Calvinist doctrine then? Would seem that you would have a position either way. I guess your just walking in the middle of the road then.

Not at all.
When Y'SHUA was in a crowd,
and when PAUL or the APOSTLES were between scribes and pharisees,
or at athens, or in any group of people,

what did they speak ? They did not take sides.

Not even "I am of PAUL" nor "I am of Apollos" nor even (SURPRISE) "I am of Christ" !!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Everyone seeking TRUTH finds it.
(this is YHWH'S WORD/ HIS PROMISE; not mine)
Not too many on earth ever find TRUTH.
It is a paradox and a tragedy and a dilemma and vexing.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Everyone seeking TRUTH finds it.
Not too many on earth ever find TRUTH.
It is a paradox and a tragedy and a dilemma and vexing.

Though a lot of times people seek truth and come to a different view of what the truth is.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Though a lot of times people seek truth and come to a different view of what the truth is.

Only if they accept deception. (if they keep on seeking TRUTH (Y'SHUA) , eventually they learn the TRUTH.
Y'SHUA does not change.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Only if they accept deception.

How can we be absolutely certain what is truth and that we are not deceived? Someone may do all the research they can into a subject only to come up with a different conclusion than someone who doesn't, or even someone who looked at the same evidence.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not at all.
When Y'SHUA was in a crowd,
and when PAUL or the APOSTLES were between scribes and pharisees,
or at athens, or in any group of people,

what did they speak ? They did not take sides.

Not even "I am of PAUL" nor "I am of Apollos" nor even (SURPRISE) "I am of Christ" !!

Paul definately took sides when others were coming into the churches preaching a false gospel.

Paul took sides when Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles. Paul called Peter out publically.

And what about when all the apostles got together to talk about if Gentiles needed to follow Jewish religious holidays or not?

There are moments. They were not perfect

 

[bottomofsandal]

Why are you on a thread that is debating Calvinist doctrine then?

The dear brother has contributed substantially to the thread!
Those excerpts from Isaiah I really enjoyed, God knowing beginning from end, etc.
Proverbs says a man devises plans in his heart, but The Lord directs His steps.

BTW, this thread is about grace, not Calvinism.
Like Jeff, I agree with Calvinists, Arminians, Reformed, even Catholics.
It is noteworthy that in several posts, there has been an absence of grace.

If not grace, then what power makes a man willing, or persuades and convinces man to believe unto salvation?
Where are we told that God's grace would save all men, because we have the evidence that it does not save all men.
Either grace is effective, not given to all, resisted, or must be combined with a human element, or cooperated with in some capacity.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Paul definately took sides when others were coming into the churches preaching a false gospel.

Did the Apostles take the side of YHWH and Y'SHUA,
or of the false gospel ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And you realize that just because God knows all does not mean that He has decided the outcome of each person's life.

I might have replied to this already,
so this may be a repeat, but that's okay - a safe reminder so to speak.

You do agree that YHWH is a PERFECT JUDGE, right ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Paul took sides when Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles. Paul called Peter out publically.

This is what he was supposed to do.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And what about when all the apostles got together to talk about if Gentiles needed to follow Jewish religious holidays or not?

There are moments. They were not perfect

What about those moments?

Did they do what they were trained to do by Y'SHUA, and bring about what YHWH wanted ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How can we be absolutely certain what is truth and that we are not deceived?

Good question.
I had to depend on YHWH'S GRACE and HIS PROMISES in SCRIPTURE
and Y'SHUA'S PROMISES to HIS disciples and to all the disciples who would come later, as WRITTEN in HIS WORD. (in english: no Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek needed to realize this)

 

[EmSw]

Jesus gave Paul the words to write. We have just discussed Jesus words in John. At this point you are openly rejecting God's word. There is nothing more to say when you reject God's word to maintain an errant theology.

Not so fast Menno. We are going to look at what Jesus said of life. This is the absolute standard by which truth is tested. Do you agree with this?

If Paul or anyone else speaks of life, it SHOULD agree with what Jesus said, NO EXCEPTIONS! Do you agree with this?

We will start with Matthew 7.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

There are two ways or paths, one leads to destruction, and one to life. That's a basic and fundamental truth. Built upon this foundational truth is that few find the strait gate and narrow path. What does Jesus mean by 'find' it?

This is Strong's definition of 'find' -

1. to come upon, hit upon, to meet with
   1. after searching, to find a thing sought
   2. without previous search, to find (by chance), to fall in with
   3. those who come or return to a place
2. to find by enquiry, thought, examination, scrutiny, observation, to find out by practice and experience
   1. to see, learn, discover, understand
   2. to be found i.e. to be seen, be present
   3. to be discovered, recognised, detected, to show one's self out, of one's character or state as found out by others (men, God, or both)
   4. to get knowledge of, come to know, God
3. to find out for one's self, to acquire, get, obtain, procure

There are many definitions for 'find'. We see search, to find a thing sought, to find by inquiry, to find out by practice, to find out for one's self, to acquire, to procure, to come, among others.

Built upon the foundational truth of a narrow path which leads to life, is one who finds it. In definition 1.1 above, it says to find a thing sought. How does one find a thing sought (path to life)? In verses 7 and 8 of chapter 7, Jesus says this -

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

To 'find' the narrow path which leads to life, you seek. Seek and you shall 'find'. Ask, seek, and knock. Jesus' words are not in vain, seek and you shall 'find'. All references to life have these foundational truths.

 

[EmSw]

First off: I am using the parable to better define “dead” when deity or the Bible talk about death other than physical death.

In the parable the father even after knowing the son was physically alive calls the young son dead, so this would be some form of “spiritual” death. While spiritual dead according to Jesus the young son came to his senses and turned to the father.

I also do not go along with the doctrine of original sin where even an unborn baby is a sinner, so we all start out as children of God (as Paul described us), but we are the children of who we obey, so when we start sinning we become children of satan.

And some say a 'dead' man can do nothing. This parable strikes down that thought.