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How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

Cieza

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What we have here is a non-believer distorting the biblical definition of omnipotence in order to "prove" that God cannot exist. Contrary to their claims, omnipotence does not include the ability to do things that are, by definition, impossible.
So you don't contend that God can do anything. It is impossible for a droplet of water to turn into a 250 pound pig. Can God make a droplet of water turn into a 250 pound pig? Where do you draw the line on what is or isn't possible?

Do you realize that it is impossible for a human to walk on water? Therefore, by your rationale the authors of the Bible must have been lying when they said Jesus walked on water.


Neither does omnipotence include the ability to fail. By defining omnipotence as requiring one to have the ability to fail, non-believers have defined omnipotence as being impossible. Of course, an omnipotent God would never fail.
By that logic, God doesn't have the ability to make choices freely. Otherwise, he could choose to fail at something.

Can God circle a letter on a sheet of paper? If there is more than one letter on a sheet of paper, could God circle one letter and not circle another letter? If so, then God can take a math test in which he intentionally guesses the wrong answers so he'll fail the test. If he cannot do this, then he doesn't have the capability of circling any letter he wants? If he can choose to circle one letter instead of another letter, then he can choose to fail the math test.

These kinds of arguments are clearly illogical and even silly, although they are commonly used by inexperienced atheists. Most intelligent non-believers have dropped these kinds of arguments long ago.
I'm not proclaiming to be an atheist. I'm merely going off the definition of God as Christians have described it to me. That coupled with my first hand experience of making free choices leaves us with a paradox.
 
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GrayAngel

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The Bible also says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Are you going to pick and choose which verses you like and which to ignore?

Oh my word. I'm beginning to think that talking to you is a waste of time. You've been so heavily convinced of free will that you refuse to listen to what the Bible teaches, and you refuse to answer any of my questions.

I'll give you one last chance to explain yourself: The Bible says that the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh. How are these verses compatible with your beliefs? Can you explain it?
 
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solarwave

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So you don't contend that God can do anything. It is impossible for a droplet of water to turn into a 250 pound pig. Can God make a droplet of water turn into a 250 pound pig? Where do you draw the line on what is or isn't possible?

Do you realize that it is impossible for a human to walk on water? Therefore, by your rationale the authors of the Bible must have been lying when they said Jesus walked on water.

I believe he was saying the logically impossible, not the physically impossible. It isn't impossible to walk on walker, it just impossible to do it with some sort of help (from science or God). It would appear to be impossible to turn a water droplet into a pig, but who knows what science will do in a few hundred years. The logically impossible are things like square circles.

By that logic, God doesn't have the ability to make choices freely. Otherwise, he could choose to fail at something.

Can God circle a letter on a sheet of paper? If there is more than one letter on a sheet of paper, could God circle one letter and not circle another letter? If so, then God can take a math test in which he intentionally guesses the wrong answers so he'll fail the test. If he cannot do this, then he doesn't have the capability of circling any letter he wants? If he can choose to circle one letter instead of another letter, then he can choose to fail the math test.

It would probably be better to word it to say that God can't fail by accident. God did what He choose to do, therefore didn't fail.
 
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Cieza

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I believe he was saying the logically impossible, not the physically impossible. It isn't impossible to walk on walker, it just impossible to do it with some sort of help (from science or God). It would appear to be impossible to turn a water droplet into a pig, but who knows what science will do in a few hundred years. The logically impossible are things like square circles.
Is it logically possible for future yet to be determined choices to already be determined?

It would probably be better to word it to say that God can't fail by accident. God did what He choose to do, therefore didn't fail.
It sounds like what you're saying is if God set out to fail the math test, then he wouldn't have failed in his effort to fail the math test. Is that correct?
 
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solarwave

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Is it logically possible for future yet to be determined choices to already be determined?

Sorry, I'm not sure what your asking? I think you might be asking if it is logically possible for the future to affect the past. If so then I am not sure. Common sense says no, but some bits of quantum theories might suggest weird things like this are possible. I don't know, but I'm going to say the future can't affect the past normally. I'm also not sure if time travel counts as the future affecting the past in the way I am thinking of it.

It sounds like what you're saying is if God set out to fail the math test, then he wouldn't have failed in his effort to fail the math test. Is that correct?

Correct :thumbsup:
 
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Cieza

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Sorry, I'm not sure what your asking? I think you might be asking if it is logically possible for the future to affect the past. If so then I am not sure. Common sense says no, but some bits of quantum theories might suggest weird things like this are possible. I don't know, but I'm going to say the future can't affect the past normally. I'm also not sure if time travel counts as the future affecting the past in the way I am thinking of it.
Wow! I certainly botched that one up. I'll reword it.
Is it logically possible for an A/B choice to possess both the characteristics of A) having not yet been made & either an A or B choice is possible
B) being known to someone and one of the two choices is not possible



By that rationale, God could fail at one thing while not failing at something else.
 
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Deaver

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So you don't contend that God can do anything. It is impossible for a droplet of water to turn into a 250 pound pig. Can God make a droplet of water turn into a 250 pound pig? Where do you draw the line on what is or isn't possible?

While God can do anything He wishes to do, God will not do things that would be against His holy will, or are contradictory to His purposes. Remember, God created reality and He will not act contrary to that.

Do you realize that it is impossible for a human to walk on water? Therefore, by your rationale the authors of the Bible must have been lying when they said Jesus walked on water.

I am not sure I agree with that. We cannot walk on water because we believe we can’t. Jesus walked on water and so did Peter. Now Peter only took a few steps and then took his focus off of Jesus and lost faith and therefore could no longer walk on the water.

By that logic, God doesn't have the ability to make choices freely. Otherwise, he could choose to fail at something.

I am not sure of your logic here. Non-believers believe that God has to be able to fail to be omnipotent, which is faulty logic. Why would God choose to fail? For that matter why would man choose to fail?

Can God circle a letter on a sheet of paper? If there is more than one letter on a sheet of paper, could God circle one letter and not circle another letter? If so, then God can take a math test in which he intentionally guesses the wrong answers so he'll fail the test. If he cannot do this, then he doesn't have the capability of circling any letter he wants? If he can choose to circle one letter instead of another letter, then he can choose to fail the math test.

Again the fallacy of your argument is that God would choose to fail; why would he?

I'm not proclaiming to be an atheist. I'm merely going off the definition of God as Christians have described it to me. That coupled with my first hand experience of making free choices leaves us with a paradox.

If you are to going to continue to listen to what Christians say I would further advise you to take time to study what the Bible says about the attributes and characteristics of God. Scripture tells us that we should test everything against God’s word. By this I do not mean to find verses that prove your point but take the Bible in its entirety to reach a sound conclusion.
 
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solarwave

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Wow! I certainly botched that one up. I'll reword it.
Is it logically possible for an A/B choice to possess both the characteristics of A) having not yet been made & either an A or B choice is possible
B) being known to someone and one of the two choices is not possible

I would say that even though someone might know your future, it doesn't mean both options aren't possible. The knowledge of the future is only known because of the genuine choice made in the past. I can pick up a pen and think that I could have chosen not to pick it up. Even though I could have chosen differently I didn't and it was always going to be the case that I picked the pen up. That was going to be the future even if no one knew. It could be said that God knowing the future is a bit like us being able to reflect on the past. We know we made a free choice, but that choice was ultimately only going to be what it was. :)

By that rationale, God could fail at one thing while not failing at something else.

Well it depends whose definition you use. God would only fail the math test by our standard, which assumes that the point is to get every question correct.
 
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SonOfTheWest

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Wow! I certainly botched that one up. I'll reword it.
Is it logically possible for an A/B choice to possess both the characteristics of A) having not yet been made & either an A or B choice is possible
B) being known to someone and one of the two choices is not possible




By that rationale, God could fail at one thing while not failing at something else.

I have to say thank you Zieza. I'm glad to know at least one person on this thread understand what the definition of certain words being bandied about actually means.
 
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LostMarbels

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This has been an ongoing subject for years. I have never come to undesrtand why free will is such a hard concept to understand. I mean, the very ability of choice, reasoning, and to make a decision is in of itself free will. The ability to debate, and even take a stance on a certian matter is a choice. We must purposefully decide to take any action. Wether we smoke, drink, party, or live on the total oppisite of the gammbit, we decide who we are. By social patterning, learned behavioral traits, and habits we form our own being. We create our own phyches by our system of belifes, and moral conduct. We learn to be us. No matter what life may present us, it is our own idividual response, thoughts and prossesing of these events that determin our own individuality. Not one human being is a robot that must do anything. There is always a choice, and a consecuence. Good or bad. There is always a choice and a result. We are a unique taxom with inate abilities, and boundless posibilities. The human mind is a marvel..... every one of has one, and yet it's capabilities can not hope to as of yet be grasped. Its total crap for anyone to say we do not control our own destinies. Crap, crap, crap. Dont belive it? No hand of God is ever going to come down and stop you from making any certian decision. Even against all the survival systems evolved into man, you can still decide to take your own life. Or that of another. or give life. Love, forgivness...... YOUR CHOICE.

So lets go back to Pete. Pete's cool, I like Pete. So he has the ability to chose A or B. So lets say he picks K, (just go wtih it..... A & B sucks!) So he picks K, and decides to run with it. So in a logical debate, where, and at what point dose he not have free will. Why can't he pick K? No matter what he decides to do.... Pete still made the choice. Now lets put God in this. All knowing, all present. Any of ya seen Source Code? Cool movie. Lets look at it like this...... God is the dude getting the bomb, we are the passengers on the train, totaly unaware of Gods knowledge of the situation, or even that there are different choices to different outcomes. But just like the dude on the train, God has bounced around and saw the different outcomes, becoming all knowing, and all present having been in more than one thread at a once, and by knowing the outcome of any particular thread by having been there. So by being all powerful, and all present God is able to already know any possible outcome, of any choice or decision Pete will make. Just like the coffee spilling on The dudes shoe. Or the phone call, ect, ect

Ok..... now its time to let out my inner geek. Reality is subjective, therefore there are as many realities as there are sentient beings. There is some talk in physics about parallel universes but it is just talk, speculation driven by ambiguities in the interpretation of mathematical models or by the intractability of the remaining physics problems. We still lack a model for the masses of particles and we lack a synthesis between general relativity and quantum mechanics. Creative model making in mathematical physics requires wild speculation about extra degrees of mathematical freedom and how they might be interpreted but it is a mistake when such talk is shared with the public because it has no credibility, however A team of astrophysicists based in Australia and England has uncovered evidence that the laws of physics are different in different parts of the universe. This is astounding, what if all options are posible? What if A, B, and K were all played out within there own plane....... pretty cool huh?

Now... Here's a choke point for alot of people. God can do anything, but there are things he will refuse to do. God will never at any point for any reason give homage to any other god, lie, partake of sin, entertain evil, tempt mankind to evil or sin, nor break an oath or his word. These things He has swore to by his own mouth. Hope this helps.............:thumbsup:
 
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GrayAngel

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This has been an ongoing subject for years. I have never come to undesrtand why free will is such a hard concept to understand. I mean, the very ability of choice, reasoning, and to make a decision is in of itself free will. The ability to debate, and even take a stance on a certian matter is a choice. We must purposefully decide to take any action. Wether we smoke, drink, party, or live on the total oppisite of the gammbit, we decide who we are. By social patterning, learned behavioral traits, and habits we form our own being. We create our own phyches by our system of belifes, and moral conduct. We learn to be us. No matter what life may present us, it is our own idividual response, thoughts and prossesing of these events that determin our own individuality. Not one human being is a robot that must do anything. There is always a choice, and a consecuence. Good or bad. There is always a choice and a result. We are a unique taxom with inate abilities, and boundless posibilities. The human mind is a marvel..... every one of has one, and yet it's capabilities can not hope to as of yet be grasped. Its total crap for anyone to say we do not control our own destinies. Crap, crap, crap. Dont belive it? No hand of God is ever going to come down and stop you from making any certian decision. Even against all the survival systems evolved into man, you can still decide to take your own life. Or that of another. or give life. Love, forgivness...... YOUR CHOICE.

So lets go back to Pete. Pete's cool, I like Pete. So he has the ability to chose A or B. So lets say he picks K, (just go wtih it..... A & B sucks!) So he picks K, and decides to run with it. So in a logical debate, where, and at what point dose he not have free will. Why can't he pick K? No matter what he decides to do.... Pete still made the choice. Now lets put God in this. All knowing, all present. Any of ya seen Source Code? Cool movie. Lets look at it like this...... God is the dude getting the bomb, we are the passengers on the train, totaly unaware of Gods knowledge of the situation, or even that there are different choices to different outcomes. But just like the dude on the train, God has bounced around and saw the different outcomes, becoming all knowing, and all present having been in more than one thread at a once, and by knowing the outcome of any particular thread by having been there. So by being all powerful, and all present God is able to already know any possible outcome, of any choice or decision Pete will make. Just like the coffee spilling on The dudes shoe. Or the phone call, ect, ect

Ok..... now its time to let out my inner geek. Reality is subjective, therefore there are as many realities as there are sentient beings. There is some talk in physics about parallel universes but it is just talk, speculation driven by ambiguities in the interpretation of mathematical models or by the intractability of the remaining physics problems. We still lack a model for the masses of particles and we lack a synthesis between general relativity and quantum mechanics. Creative model making in mathematical physics requires wild speculation about extra degrees of mathematical freedom and how they might be interpreted but it is a mistake when such talk is shared with the public because it has no credibility, however A team of astrophysicists based in Australia and England has uncovered evidence that the laws of physics are different in different parts of the universe. This is astounding, what if all options are posible? What if A, B, and K were all played out within there own plane....... pretty cool huh?

Now... Here's a choke point for alot of people. God can do anything, but there are things he will refuse to do. God will never at any point for any reason give homage to any other god, lie, partake of sin, entertain evil, tempt mankind to evil or sin, nor break an oath or his word. These things He has swore to by his own mouth. Hope this helps.............:thumbsup:

Marbels, you seem like a logical thinker to me. I don't know if you've been reading my comments, but my proposal to the answer of the OP's question is that the notion of free will is not Biblical.

Many people seem to believe in free will simply because it's the popular thing to believe in. But can you provide a Biblical case for free will?

It's not enough just to say that you think that a God of predestination would be evil: that is only opinion. You're allowed to believe what you want, but if you want to convince me, you'll have to provide more than just your own opinions.

I used to believe in free will myself, but after a while, I gave in to what the Bible seemed to be teaching. I figure, if you're going to believe in God, you might as well embrace the one book He gave us to teach us about Himself.

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Ephesians 1:11-12 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

John 12-37-40 - Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”
 
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chilehed

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Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?
Remember, God exists outside of time. For him there is no past and no future, there is only now.

To know what someone will decide to do, and to watch him do it, is not to make him do it.
 
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GrayAngel

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Remember, God exists outside of time. For him there is no past and no future, there is only now.

To know what someone will decide to do, and to watch him do it, is not to make him do it.

This is my problem with this logic: God created us. It's not the same as us watching a total stranger do things outside of our control. If God designed us, then we can only act as God designed us to act. If we were created with an aggressive nature, then we will act aggressively. If we were created with a shy nature, then we will avoid conflict. God designed every aspect of ourselves with full knowledge of the results.

To God, we're like wind-up toy cars. We can't do anything to surprise God.
 
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elman

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Oh my word. I'm beginning to think that talking to you is a waste of time. You've been so heavily convinced of free will that you refuse to listen to what the Bible teaches, and you refuse to answer any of my questions.

I'll give you one last chance to explain yourself: The Bible says that the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh. How are these verses compatible with your beliefs? Can you explain it?
I will give you one last chance. The Bible says Pharoah hardened his own heart. How are those verses compatible with your beliefs? Can you explain it? I know you can deny it exists, but that is not explaining it.
 
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GrayAngel

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I will give you one last chance. The Bible says Pharoah hardened his own heart. How are those verses compatible with your beliefs? Can you explain it? I know you can deny it exists, but that is not explaining it.

I already have explained it. But if you're going to refuse to answer my questions, then we're finished.
 
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LostMarbels

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The truth is this.... No matter what you are presented it is something for you to disprove, to debunk, and reprove into your own terms. I have not duped you with a piltdown man, and I havent beatten you down bible or flowery words. Take your bible and throw it to the other side of the room..... now leave it there. Lets talk about logic.

I hope you can discuss this whith out circle talk and crazzy rambeling. Its a verry simple topic.

You use terms like "opinion"....... "believe", and "You're allowed to believe what you want, but if you want to convince me"


So lets get this straight, Im ALLOWED to BELIEVE...........
:confused:^^^PREDESTINATION???^^^:confused:

What is this? Independant thought? Choice?

Come on.... your not talking to a Hovindite, no cherry picking, no circle talk. If you do not belive in free will, than what is the ability for you to choise, and/or formulate a descion called?

Please do not talk to me like Im a idiot. Im asking nicely buddy.:thumbsup:

#1. by what 'force', 'right' , or 'entity' do you have the ability to make a conscience decsion?

#2. Do you as a person, have the ability to change your mind?

#3 What belife system do you hold to? Or what do you belive.....


PLEASE NOTE THERE ARE NO BIBLE VERSES ABOVE.... LETS TALK LOGIC
 
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GrayAngel

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The truth is this.... No matter what you are presented it is something for you to disprove, to debunk, and reprove into your own terms. I have not duped you with a piltdown man, and I havent beatten you down bible or flowery words. Take your bible and throw it to the other side of the room..... now leave it there. Lets talk about logic.

I hope you can discuss this whith out circle talk and crazzy rambeling. Its a verry simple topic.

You use terms like "opinion"....... "believe", and "You're allowed to believe what you want, but if you want to convince me"


So lets get this straight, Im ALLOWED to BELIEVE...........
:confused:^^^PREDESTINATION???^^^:confused:

What is this? Independant thought? Choice?

Come on.... your not talking to a Hovindite, no cherry picking, no circle talk. If you do not belive in free will, than what is the ability for you to choise, and/or formulate a descion called?

Please do not talk to me like Im a idiot. Im asking nicely buddy.:thumbsup:

#1. by what 'force', 'right' , or 'entity' do you have the ability to make a conscience decsion?

#2. Do you as a person, have the ability to change your mind?

#3 What belife system do you hold to? Or what do you belive.....


PLEASE NOTE THERE ARE NO BIBLE VERSES ABOVE.... LETS TALK LOGIC

First off, if you can't find a Biblical basis for your beliefs, then I'm not very interested. All of my beliefs about God and life are based on what the Bible teaches. Atheists talk logic, but we Christians have the Bible as our higher authority.

And I won't speak to you like an idiot, as I would hope you would do the same.

Also, while some will get flared up on the discussion of free will vs predestination, it's important that we realize the triviality of our position. The gospel is the center of our faith, and anything else is secondary. Whether we believe in free will or predestination, it won't drastically determine the way we live.

1. To understand my view of predestination, it may be best to imagine reality in two levels. The first is our human level. We have a "will" (ie an emotionally driven will to act). Our will is not "free", but its easy to see an illusion of free will due to our place in the world. We live in time, with total ignorance of what is to come.

The second is God's level. He lives outside of time. Nothing is a surprise to Him, because He sees all time layed out in front of Him. Our will is the product of His design. He created the two essential parts of us: our biology and our environment. Our environment determines our nature, and our environment teaches us how to behave, but both work together to mold us.

God was not an ignorant designer. He knew the full result of His creation, from beginning to end, which means everything was done intentionally. Everything we do is a part of His plan.

2. Yes. I can change my mind. But whether or not I would change my mind was already decided. From my level of reality, I chose to change my mind, but at God's level of reality, He already knew and determined for me to change my mind.

Same as the way the gospel spreads. We can plant the seeds in someone's mind, but only God has the power to make it grow.

3. I'm a Christian, currently attending a Baptist church. But I have had background in Pentecostal, Lutheran, and multiple non-denominational churches. Heck, I was even involved with a cult for a short period of time, so I've considered several different points of view. I don't like to call myself a Baptist, however, because my denomination is not as important to me as the gospel I believe in.

If you want to talk logic, then answer this question for me please:

From my point of view, if God gave us free will, which He refuses to touch, then His credibility becomes weaker. The Bible says that God has a plan for us. Well, if all He's doing is observing us do our thing, then what worth is His plan?
 
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Cieza

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Remember, God exists outside of time. For him there is no past and no future, there is only now.

To know what someone will decide to do, and to watch him do it, is not to make him do it.
Is it logically possible for it to be infallibly defined & determined what future A/B choice one will make prior to the time the choice is made and the choice can also be made freely - meaning either A or B could be chosen?
 
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