Again I agree with you. There may be many different 'planes' of reality. I hold the belief that it may even be possible for the laws of physics, time, ect, to even be found to be differnt in our own plane of exsistance. Who knows? Have we discovered all the laws of physics? Do we know everything?
But on the part where you belive that free will is an illusion, I belive that cheapens Christ's life, and death. The gospel becomes a lie if only a few chosen can recive it. What happens to the free gift of God which is grace through Christ Jesus to all who recive him, if it is unatainable? This flies in the face of 'redemmed by grace'. Why did Jesus die then? One would think God could just pick and choise without comming to earth to die at the hands of his own creation. None of this makes any sense at all from a bibical gospel point of veiw.
The argument can go both ways. You say that predestination makes God evil, because He chooses who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. But with free will, God can be accused of idly allowing evil to happen. Have you ever seen the first Spider-man movie? After Peter Parker gets cheated out of his money, he witnesses the jerk getting robbed. When the thief runs his way towards the elevator, Peter stands out of the way and lets him pass. His excuse: "I fail to see how this is my problem." Is God like Peter Parker?
No matter which way you go, if we apply our own human standards to God, He's always evil. But God is not human. As creator, He has a different role to play.
Predestination does not affect the Gospel. The reason He couldn't just pick and choose us without dying is for the same reason you believe He couldn't just let us all into Heaven. Whether we have free will or are predestined, we fall short of God's standards, and we need Jesus to save us. And according to the Bible, once you're saved, our salvation is guarded in Heaven by God's own hand. In other words, we can't lose it.
The Bible says that God not only knew who would be saved, it says that He chose us from the start. We did not save ourselves: it was all God.
This is an intresting point of veiw, and I have actualy read on the subject studying Ivan Pavlov concerning nurture vrs nature. Pavlov came up with the term of conditional reflex, meaning a learned behavioral trait. He was able to condition both dogs, and hummans to respond to certian stimuli in detreminable, and recordable responses. However, I still believe the idividual taxom in question, being either a dog, humman, or otherwise is the determinig factor. For example, if you take a tiger cub from birth, never having know the wild, and raise it in your house. You will be living with a wild tiger in your house. Not matter what you do you cannot retrain DNA to act another way. We are mankind, and no matter what we will act like wise. So with that being said I believe that eviromental factors are not the deciding force on who we become. God may influence us, but we must choise to 'become' anything
As a psychology student, I'm very familiar with Pavlov. His contribution was to show how powerful the influence of the environment has on an animal. Using his methods, along with others', one could essentially mold any kind of behavior they like. However, like you say, there are some limitations. Biology plays a major role in behavior, as well. Some species have instincts or other factors that get in the way of environmental learning.
Humans are little different. All of us were born with DNA, and all of us were put in a certain environment to learn and grow. We had no role in creating ourselves: inside and outside were both given to us. All of our behaviors are consistent with who were are, and there is no wiggle room for free will to exist.
The only other logical factor to our growth I can imagine is the spiritual realm (angels, demons, and God), which are, again, external influences acting on us.
Agreed. But the question I have is what do you think his plan is? Dommination?
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
In the world of mankind: He gives breath to the people upon it, not only air to breathe in, but the breath of life itself and he gives spirit, the powers and faculties of a rational soul, and mind to those that walk therein. Now this is prefixed to God's covenant with the Messiah, and the commission given him, not only to show that he has authority to make such a covenant and give such a commission, but that the design of God's work of redemption was to maintain the honour of the Creator, and to restore man to the allegiance he owes to God as his Maker. This is a bond, a union of God with his creation, not a dictation and, and, and God has given his creation the commision to be a light to the gentiles. He's not forceing the gentiles. It is also written that by the foolishness of preaching,God srpeads the gospel. God has given us all the resources to make a decsion.
I am only a man, so I don't know the full extent of God's plan. It's far too complicated and big for us to imagine. But the simple story of it is this: From the start, God created humans. In the garden was a temptation, which God knew they would not be able to ignore forever. The serpent, who He knew full well was in the garden with them, tempted them. All of the world was thrown into disorder because of their sin, and mankind was separated from God.
God planned for mankind to fall, so that He could send Jesus, who existed even in the beginning [notice how God refers to Himself in the plural "us" in Genesis?], to redeem us. In this corrupted world, God would select a few to save from the fire and make them His prized possessions.
Now those of us who are alive are waiting for Christ's return, and I expect many more surprises to come. This is the simple version of God's plan, according to the Bible.
True to a point. We have the right to not listen to God's call. we can refuse the teachings just like the parable of the seeds on hard soil. Grow quickly, than fade away.
Why did Jesus go threw so much crap for nothing? Why did he Preach the sermon on the mount, teach parables, teach us to pray if it is meaningless?
I cannot grasp the theroy of predestination.
The parable of the sower that you mentioned is another point for predestination in my view.
Did you ever think it was strange that a sower would throw his seeds among weeds, and in dry places where they obviously wouldn't grow? God, the sower, did not give the seeds an equal chance. Otherwise, He would have planted them all in the soil instead of tossing them around.
The seeds had no choice in the matter. They fell where they fell, and their fate was sealed from the beginning.
Jesus did not die for nothing. He still died for the sins of those who would believe in Him. He gave the sermon on the mount to teach us. The parables were given so that many would not understand, but those who did would have their eyes opened by God. He taught us to pray because He wants us to have a relationship with Him.
First of all, we are the creation, not the creator.... our own points of veiw are meanningless. Our opinons are worthless assumptions, nothing more than the filty rags of our works.
Second, you have absolutly no basis at all to do with the credibility of God. None.
If you look into it you will find that he has sent us the holy spirit as a guide, and a teacher to help us with life. Jesus testify's, us to the Father, claiming us for himself by the promise of God bought by his own blood. The father holds fast to his word, keeping his covanents with us and answering our please.
Nearly all we've been talking about is our opinions. Logic is formed around our own opinions.
The Holy Spirit is for believers only. What about people who are not believers? How does God account for them in His plan? If someone had the intent to kill you, and He succeeds, then was that a part of God's plan? If not, was God too weak to stop it?
God's plans are for the good of those who love Him. If God allows bad things to happen, which He has no part of according to free will, then what worth is His plan? Sure, His plans for us are for good, but there are a lot of sinful people in the world who will just screw up every good plan He's got.
