How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

[Cieza]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

 

[drich0150]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

First lets biblically define "Free will."
But first some basic definitions from the bible.

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God

Evil, is a malicious intent to commit sin

Not all sin is evil, but all evil is sin

Freewill is the ability to choose your own will over that of God's expressed will. (The bible/God's Law)

In other words Free will is the ability to sin.

So whether we have a destiny or things just kinda all happen random like, or as Forrest Gump's explains: "that it maybe a little bit of both," Biblically based "freewill" is not effected by our life's path and whether it is determined for us or not. Because it is our ability to choose to sin or not. Not whether or not we were born to be astronauts or truck drivers.

Second let us have an understanding the the "omni-aspects" of God are not a biblical principle. They are a biblically BASED principles. Then mean God in the scriptures inspired by the holy Spirit, No where did he attribute or define Himself in these ways. "We" in our religious efforts to try and dissect and understand an infinite God, have broken down God's character in a philosophically way. Because these descriptions nor these definitions are of the Bible, or God in anyway. they are terms simply subject to man's understanding or interpretation of a particular aspect of God. These terms can come to limit a limitless God. When this fatal counter scriptural flaw, occurs. These "religious" words must be discarded. Because they produce a fallacy when speaking of the biblically based nature of God.

 

[s_s]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

Pah. that's easy. You wrongly assume that God lives in the same timeframe as us. God doesn't 'know' the future, he is IN the future.

 

[Non sequitur]

God doesn't 'know' the future, he is IN the future.

*mind blown*

 

[maizer]

Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

True, but Pete does NOT know, so isn't your example hard a bit apart from this world?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Cieza. God is omniscient and omnipotent, God knows the Past and the Future. We have been given free will to choose to follow God`s Commandments, or follow our own will. When God sees our Future, God sees what we have chosen, even if we are still alive and change our minds as often as we like, God will see the end-results. Remember that God is Omniscient. It seems too hard to grasp for own brains, and although we are made in God`s image, and some of us are very clever, But God is ALL-KNOWING. I say this with love, Ciesza. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[singpeace]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

Suppose you worked at a daycare center and were outside with 30 toddlers at play time. You can know by watching them who is about to hit who; who is about to bite who; who is about to fall off the swing, etc. The toddlers are not planning what to do but making decisions within seconds of doing what they do - unless they are falling off the swing. Regardless, you know before they do what will be most of the decisions. How then are they making their own decisions if you know before they what their decision will be?

It's probably a poor example. But I think you see the point I'm trying to make.

Wait... what point was I trying to make?

 

[ebia]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

Omnipotence, omniscience etc are Greek, not Hebrew, ideas.

With John Goldingay, I'm increasingly inclined to take the Old Testament seriously when it describes God not knowing, discovering, experimenting,...

That God chooses not to know some things in advance so that he can enter into a genuine relationship.

 

[singpeace]

Yeah, but how do you choose to not know something? Wouldn't you have to know what it is you have chosen not to know?

 

[bling]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

As far as being all knowing, that would not mean God knows that which is not knowable, but knows all that is knowable. It might work this way: “Yesterday you made a free will moral decision that God knows about today, God then sends that information back to Himself eons earlier through a wormhole, so He does know your free will decision prior to you making it as far as you are concerned (in your time frame).

There are some things God cannot do ex. Make a being that has always existed. With man God cannot make a being already having at his creation: Godly type Love since that would be robotic type love. God cannot force his Love on a free will being since that would not be Loving on His part. Man’s earthly objective is thus to obtain this Love simple by humbly accepting God’s Charity in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness.

 

[Cieza]

Pah. that's easy. You wrongly assume that God lives in the same timeframe as us. God doesn't 'know' the future, he is IN the future.

Perhaps I should rephrase my question. Let's say God knows Pete is going to choose A on day 3. If God informed Pete on Pete's day 1 that Pete would choose A on Pete's day 3 and Pete ended up choosing B instead, what would happen to God's infallible foreknowledge?

 

[bling]

Perhaps I should rephrase my question. Let's say God knows Pete is going to choose A on day 3. If God informed Pete on Pete's day 1 that Pete would choose A on Pete's day 3 and Pete ended up choosing B instead, what would happen to God's infallible foreknowledge?

You are thinking about it wrong. God knows on day four Peter choose A on day three even after God told Peter on Day one he would choose A on day three, because that is what Peter did in God's experience. God on day four sent the information back to himself on day one through a wormhole type device.

 

[ebia]

Yeah, but how do you choose to not know something? Wouldn't you have to know what it is you have chosen not to know?

Says who?

 

[Cieza]

You are thinking about it wrong. God knows on day four Peter choose A on day three even after God told Peter on Day one he would choose A on day three, because that is what Peter did in God's experience. God on day four sent the information back to himself on day one through a wormhole type device.

If God can do anything and knows everything, then he could let Pete know what his A/B decision will be prior to Pete making the decision. That raises the question of what happens if God tells Pete what decision he will make and Pete chooses the other.

 

[singpeace]

Says who?

No one says... I'm just considering what you said. It's an interesting concept.

 

[ebia]

No one says... I'm just considering what you said. It's an interesting concept.

Okay

 

[kimmyh51]

If God can do anything and knows everything, then he could let Pete know what his A/B decision will be prior to Pete making the decision. That raises the question of what happens if God tells Pete what decision he will make and Pete chooses the other.

if god did tell pete, then would that remove some of petes free will, as pete would now be basing his decision on the information god gave him, as well as the info he was originally basing it on, and as a result may choose differently....

this is the sort of thing that could be discussed for hours and never come to a conclusion

another way to ponder these things is 'if the way everything god created and the way he does, and thinks about everything, were easily understandable to everyone, even people who have not known god personally or spent much time studying god' then how much of a god would he be?

surely it stands to reason that a being which is far far more complex and intelligent than a human, is going to do and think things that the human iq simply cannot ever be capable of understanding....?

 

[bling]

If God can do anything and knows everything, then he could let Pete know what his A/B decision will be prior to Pete making the decision. That raises the question of what happens if God tells Pete what decision he will make and Pete chooses the other.

You have got to think about this.
Do you believe time is relative (this has been repeatedly supported over the last 100 years)?

Our time (sequence of events) is relative to us.

God has a different sequence of events relative to His time (God can still be in time, but it will not be our time). God is not limited to our same sequence of events.

God does not take our free will moral decisions away from us that are significant (the choice to accept or reject His help [Love/mercy/forgiveness/grace/charity]) we have got to have this type of free will to fulfill our earthly objective.

Yes! God could step in and keep every person from sinning, but sin is not the problem and not sinning is not man’s objective.

Jesus tells Peter: “You will deny me three times tonight”, but that is not to keep Peter from denying him. Peter has shown that he is already involved in big time sinning and is not dropping to his knees in front of Jesus asking for forgiveness (that is what he needs to personally decide to do). Peter is not depending on Christ’s (God’s) help but is trying to do it on his own (this is self reliance, ego building, prideful and selfish). The denial of Jesus is Peter’s personal free will decision and Jesus telling Peter beforehand lets Peter and the rest of us know:

1. God is not going to stop us from sinning (God cannot be blamed these are our decisions).

2. Sin is not the biggest problem and has purpose.

3. Forget about acting like or thinking; God does not know about our sins.

4. God will allow us to dig ourselves into such a deep hole of sinning we will be cut to the heart with the only choice of: either keep our pride and kill ourselves (like Judas or with: alcohol, drugs, depression, eating, sex, etc.) OR we will humbly accept God’s Charity in the form of forgiveness.

5. Our objective is obtaining Godly type Love through the easiest method of accepting as Charity God’s forgiveness, so God allows the non-believer to sin.

6. The reason Peter does not “change” his decision to deny Christ, is because that is the free will decision he chose (and made in God’s perspective). It was an historic decision for God already made, but it was a “future” not yet made decision for Peter. The telling of Peter “prior” (this is in Peter’s perspective) to Peter actually doing it was also part of the God’s history at the time. It is almost like the Peter made the decision twice, but under the exact same conditions, so they will be the same decision.

 

[solarwave]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

Assuming there is only one timeline, if I were to go forwards in time and see what you were going to do in 3 days and then I came back to the present, would I have just have taken your free will or have seen what you would do freely? I don't think observation has the magical power to take free will away and that's all it is with God. My understanding of God is that He is timeless and therefore never knows about something before it happens, it only seems like that to us. So it isn't that we act because someone knows we will act, they know we will act because we choose to (be it God or a time traveller).

 

[Cieza]

You are thinking about it wrong. God knows on day four Peter choose A on day three even after God told Peter on Day one he would choose A on day three, because that is what Peter did in God's experience. God on day four sent the information back to himself on day one through a wormhole type device.

I am not thinking about it wrong. It seems to me that you want me to believe I'm thinking about it wrong so the paradox won't come to the surface. But given the definition of the Christian God and the freedom man has to choose either A or B, there is a paradox. This paradox means one of the following must be true:

1) God isn't really omniscient
2) God isn't really omnipotent
3) Man doesn't really have an unimpeded free will choice to choose between A or B.

Which one is true?