How can enter the KINGDOM of God ?

[AlightSeeker]

There you go again. An out-of-context quotation and belief. Unbelievable.

It is an open question whether or not Matthew 3:11 does refer to the Pentecost event of Christian baptism and the giving of the Spirit for rebirth. Contextually, Matthew 3:7-12 is addressing the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected John’s baptism and his preaching. This is clear.

I am not sure at this point what John's statement means by his usage of "spirit baptism" but I am sure of what "fire" means. It is judgment and no Christian wants to be apart of that.

A POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION: In Matthew 3:10, John said that “even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Mt 3:10). In other words, those who would not repent would be destroyed by a judgment of fire. As a general rule, when a word is clearly defined by an author, and he uses the same word again within the same context, we presume that he has the same meaning in mind in both instances. It would stand to reason, then, that if the “fire” of verse 10 refers to judgment, so does the “fire” of verse 11.

If that were not enough, immediately after speaking of the baptism of fire, John went on to say “his winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire” (Mt 3:12). Verse 12 elaborates on and explains verse 11.

It is possible John has two groups of people in mind: those who respond to Jesus in repentance, and those who do not. Those who respond in repentance will be gathered into the barn (saved), while those who do not repent will be burned (damned). Burned with what? Fire. In context, then, the baptism with “the Holy Spirit and fire” John spoke of was a single baptism with a double effect. Those who believe and repent would be baptized with the Spirit, whereas those who do not believe and do not repent will be baptized with fiery judgment by the God who is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). Both are called a baptism.

This may sound weird to us because we associate baptism with something good. However, “baptism” is also associated with negative things, such as death. In Mark 10:38-39 and Luke 12:50, Jesus spoke of His death as a baptism. So whether the baptism is good or bad depends on the context. In the context of Matthew 3, the baptism is both good and bad. It’s good for the repentant, but bad for the unrepentant. The repentant will be given the Holy Spirit while the unrepentant will be judged.

I need to do much more work in this area. Context. Context. Context.

I'm trying to see the whole word here. We know Gentiles got the spirit before water baptism. And we know that paul wasn't sent to baptize. And this baptism of fire and spirit isn't just that we are suddenly made new, but it's the work of the spirit in us. Why are so many who are baptized In water still unfaithful to the Lord? Is the spirit not helping them? Or is it that they have taken God's grace in vain?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I'm trying to see the whole word here. We know Gentiles got the spirit before water baptism. And we know that paul wasn't sent to baptize. And this baptism of fire and spirit isn't just that we are suddenly made new, but it's the work of the spirit in us. Why are so many who are baptized In water still unfaithful to the Lord? Is the spirit not helping them? Or is it that they have taken God's grace in vain?

I am finished with this conversation. It's over.

 

[AlightSeeker]

There you go again. An out-of-context quotation and belief. Unbelievable.

It is an open question whether or not Matthew 3:11 does refer to the Pentecost event of Christian baptism and the giving of the Spirit for rebirth. Contextually, Matthew 3:7-12 is addressing the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected John’s baptism and his preaching. This is clear.

I am not sure at this point what John's statement means by his usage of "spirit baptism" but I am sure of what "fire" means. It is judgment and no Christian wants to be apart of that.

A POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION: In Matthew 3:10, John said that “even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Mt 3:10). In other words, those who would not repent would be destroyed by a judgment of fire. As a general rule, when a word is clearly defined by an author, and he uses the same word again within the same context, we presume that he has the same meaning in mind in both instances. It would stand to reason, then, that if the “fire” of verse 10 refers to judgment, so does the “fire” of verse 11.

If that were not enough, immediately after speaking of the baptism of fire, John went on to say “his winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire” (Mt 3:12). Verse 12 elaborates on and explains verse 11.

It is possible John has two groups of people in mind: those who respond to Jesus in repentance, and those who do not. Those who respond in repentance will be gathered into the barn (saved), while those who do not repent will be burned (damned). Burned with what? Fire. In context, then, the baptism with “the Holy Spirit and fire” John spoke of was a single baptism with a double effect. Those who believe and repent would be baptized with the Spirit, whereas those who do not believe and do not repent will be baptized with fiery judgment by the God who is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). Both are called a baptism.

This may sound weird to us because we associate baptism with something good. However, “baptism” is also associated with negative things, such as death. In Mark 10:38-39 and Luke 12:50, Jesus spoke of His death as a baptism. So whether the baptism is good or bad depends on the context. In the context of Matthew 3, the baptism is both good and bad. It’s good for the repentant, but bad for the unrepentant. The repentant will be given the Holy Spirit while the unrepentant will be judged.

I need to do much more work in this area. Context. Context. Context.

Fire is not judgment alone but is God's eye who sees all. Jesus has eyes of fire. He discerns our heart. Fire represents God's spirit. Is his spirit a plages or his wrath? It's the wonderful light of Christ is what it is. Even God's judgment is just and true amen.

 

[AlightSeeker]

I think the ungodly would show wisdom if they admitted that their judgment was just. Who can fight against God? You must give up and submit. And seek mercy

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Fire is not judgment alone but is God's eye who sees all. Jesus has eyes of fire. He discerns our heart. Fire represents God's spirit. Is his spirit a plages or his wrath? It's the wonderful light of Christ is what it is. Even God's judgment is just and true amen.

I think the ungodly would show wisdom if they admitted that their judgment was just. Who can fight against God? You must give up and submit. And seek mercy

I told you I am out of this conversation. You want to continue. I have no other choice than to access your account and hit the "Ignore" button. You are hereby blocked from my posts.

 

[lanceleo]

It symbolizes our death and resurrection with Christ. When people have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior .... most will want to be baptized .... but it is not a requirement .... also Jesus did not command baptism .... rather teach all to observe all His commandments (teach all nations)

One of the instructions the Lord gave His Apostles was, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20).

Yes, we are to follow His commandments .... but baptism is not a commandment ... teach all nations about all His commandments.

If baptism is not a commandment what is it then? Instruction?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

One of the instructions the Lord gave His Apostles was, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20).

Yes, we are to follow His commandments .... but baptism is not a commandment ... teach all nations about all His commandments.

This is one of the best examples of a botched interpretation of Scripture I have come across in a long time here at CF.

Matthew 28:19 doesn't say "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" as you have stated in your post with BOLD FACE and UNDERLINED. The text of Scripture says "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations." Big difference. Making disciples is the command. And how is that command fulfilled? By baptizing and teaching. Both baptizing and teaching are equally emphasized by Jesus and both are commanded.

The interpretation of Scripture is not rocket science.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is one of the best examples of a botched interpretation of Scripture I have come across in a long time here at CF.

Matthew 28:19 doesn't say "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" as you have stated in your post with BOLD FACE and UNDERLINED. The text of Scripture says "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations." Big difference. Making disciples is the command. And how is that command fulfilled? By baptizing and teaching. Both baptizing and teaching are equally emphasized by Jesus and both are commanded.

The interpretation of Scripture is not rocket science.

Correct, a disciple (μαθητής - mathetes) is not just someone who learns, a mere pupil; but a devotee to a teacher. Jesus is the Teacher, the Church is being tasked with making more disciples of Jesus. The way that happens is by entering into the Church, being part of the Jesus-following community. Baptism is an essential aspect of that because following Jesus isn't just learning about Him or hearing things He said, but is about the Holy Spirit converting us, by giving us faith, faith to believe in Jesus who suffered and died for us.

Jesus said to be born again--"water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5)
Paul tells us that the things of God are foolishness unless we have faith, for the Holy Spirit works and gives us faith so that the things of God being "Spiritually discerned"* are no longer foolishness as the world sees it "but for us who are being saved the very power of God".

*Not as the Enthusiasts falsely teach, who believe themselves lords and masters and regard themselves wise in their own sight. But rather through the faithful preaching of the word entrusted to the Church, and grounded in God's grace in His Sacraments. That through God's own Means of Grace we should be built up, edified, established, strengthened, fed, and sustained in all things.

To be made a disciple is to be regenerated and placed in Christ in relation to the Father, as a believing member of the Church; and the work of God holding firm to us through His Means of Grace, the Holy Spirit Himself giving us these gifts of Word and Sacrament through the Sacred Office of the Keys which Christ gave His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AlightSeeker]

If baptism is not a commandment what is it then? Instruction?

I dont know what it is. But Paul didn't come to baptize. If that's how we get the spirit why wouldn't he give it to us? I walk by faith here. I may not understand but he is in me. So how can I refuse that? This i do understand.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes Jesus commanded his disciples to teach all nation about his commandments but what are these commandments? Isn't baptism one of them as so highlighted by Peter? Surely Peter is one of the disciples that Jesus commands to teach all nations his commandments?

Acts 2:38
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.

In Acts 2:38

Acts 2:38 is referring to their being baptized “because” they had received forgiveness of their sins (repentance). Some other verses where the Greek preposition eis does not mean “in order to obtain” are Matthew 28:19; 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 19:3; 1 Corinthians 1:15; and 12:13.

One don't receive salvation by being baptized ...

 

[eleos1954]

Baptism was instituted by Jesus after his resurrection but before his ascension into heaven. The first Christian baptism occurred on the Day of Pentecost some fifty days after Jesus' resurrection. NOBODY WAS BAPTIZED INTO THE CHRISTIAN FAITH BEFORE THE DAY OF PENTECOST! A basic understanding of the content of Scripture will reveal this. Where do you get this idea that Christian Baptism existed before the day of Pentecost? You certainly don't get it from Scripture!

I am completely done with this conversation.

John the Baptist ... one isn't baptized into the Christian faith ... one is baptized symbolizing the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

John the Baptist ... one isn't baptized into the Christian faith ... one is baptized symbolizing the death and resurrection of Christ.

I am done with this conversation.

 

[lanceleo]

The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.

In Acts 2:38

Acts 2:38 is referring to their being baptized “because” they had received forgiveness of their sins (repentance). Some other verses where the Greek preposition eis does not mean “in order to obtain” are Matthew 28:19; 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 19:3; 1 Corinthians 1:15; and 12:13.

One don't receive salvation by being baptized ...

I don't disagree. Baptism does not save but it is commanded for believers to go through it as long as they are able. I have never said that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[eleos1954]

This is one of the best examples of a botched interpretation of Scripture I have come across in a long time here at CF.

Matthew 28:19 doesn't say "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" as you have stated in your post with BOLD FACE and UNDERLINED. The text of Scripture says "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations." Big difference. Making disciples is the command. And how is that command fulfilled? By baptizing and teaching. Both baptizing and teaching are equally emphasized by Jesus and both are commanded.

The interpretation of Scripture is not rocket science.

Romans 6:3-7 says, “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.”

likeness (symbolic)

It isn’t the act of baptism that saves you. Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that our works don’t contribute to our salvation. We can’t earn salvation, even by being baptized.

Ephesians 2

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

What about Paul the Apostle in First Corinthians 1:14-17? Paul writes, “I thank God that I baptized none of you…” Again, he says, “For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel.”

Was Paul defying Christ by making this statement and not baptizing? If baptism was indeed required (a commandment) .. then this statement he made would be contrary to the supposed commandment to baptize.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Was Paul defying Christ by making this statement and not baptizing? If baptism was indeed required (a commandment) .. then this statement he made would be contrary to the supposed commandment to baptize.

I am out of this conversation with you. I told you this two or three times. One more time and I will access your account and hit the "ignore" button. You will be forever blocked.

 

[Dan Perez]

Baptism is a ceremony proclaiming that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, demonstrates your commitment to Him.

In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus says, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

The act of baptism don't save a person .... Jesus does .... baptism is not a requirement to be saved ... rather a outward display of what has already happened inside.

The physical act of baptism is not what changes you. Instead, it is the Holy Spirit's work that makes the difference. Baptism moves your heart toward a closer relationship with Christ. It marks the beginning of a journey of a changed life.

As far as we know from scripture ... Water Baptism first started with John the Baptist ... baptism of repentance ... paving the way (prophesy of) for the Savior to come

There are no verses in the Bible that tell us whether John did or did not baptize any Gentiles but Scripture references clearly indicate that there have always been some Gentile converts abiding with the nation of Israel and therefore we can safely assume that some were baptized of him.

Your thoughts on Mark 16:16 , He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved >

Just a reminder , that the Greek word SHALL BE SAVED // SOZO , is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE in the SIGNULAR in other words , he will saved them if THEY are BAPTIZED .

dan p

 

[eleos1954]

Your thoughts on Mark 16:16 , He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved >

Just a reminder , that the Greek word SLALL BE SAVED // SOZO , is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE in the SIGNULAR in other words , he will saved them ifthey are BAPTIZED .

dan p

Jesus mentions a condition related to salvation (baptism) in Mark 16:16. However, a related condition should not be confused with a requirement. For example, having a fever is related to being ill, but a fever is not required for illness to be present. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a statement such as “whoever is not baptized will be condemned.” Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse.

Following are verses that relate to being saved and no mention of baptism .... (there are many more) .... salvation is most often tied to belief (faith)

John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; Acts 16:31).

 

[Dan Perez]

Jesus mentions a condition related to salvation (baptism) in Mark 16:16. However, a related condition should not be confused with a requirement. For example, having a fever is related to being ill, but a fever is not required for illness to be present. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a statement such as “whoever is not baptized will be condemned.” Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse.

Following are verses that relate to being saved and no mention of baptism .... (there are many more) .... salvation is most often tied to belief (faith)

John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; Acts 16:31)

Then do say that BAPTISM // BAPTIZO does not mean WATER BAPTISM ?

Is BAPTISM required FOR all people TODAY to be saved ?

So what is the requirement in Mark 16:16-18 to cast out DEMONS ??

Or what is the requirement to SPEAK in new tongues ??

your thoughts with am verse , PLEASE ?

danp

 

[eleos1954]

Then do say that BAPTISM // BAPTIZO does not mean WATER BAPTISM ?

Is BAPTISM required FOR all people TODAY to be saved ?

So what is the requirement in Mark 16:16-18 to cast out DEMONS ??

Or what is the requirement to SPEAK in new tongues ??

your thoughts with am verse , PLEASE ?

danp

Notice in Mark 16:16-18

17And these signs will accompany those who believe:

They aren't "requirements" ... they are signs ... signs of what? Belief (faith)

Also ....but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (does not reiterate baptism) ... it reiterates belief (faith)

15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”

The Holy Spirit decides what gifts are given .... not all have all gifts .... not all will speak in unknown tongues ... on the day of Pentecost the Spirit did give the gift of tongues to the disciples.

Corinthians 12:7-11 NLT​

A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge. The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing. He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.

 

[eleos1954]

Your thoughts on Mark 16:16 , He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved >

Just a reminder , that the Greek word SHALL BE SAVED // SOZO , is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE in the SIGNULAR in other words , he will saved them if THEY are BAPTIZED .

dan p

Can an unsaved person get water baptized? Yes .... does that mean they are saved? No

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.