How can enter the KINGDOM of God ?

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Why in 1 Cor 10:2 reads And all were BAPTIZED unto Moses in the CLOUD and in the SEA .

How were thousands of JEWS BAPTIZED unto Moses ?

How were they all BAPTIZED unto the CLOUD ?

How were they BAPTIZED in the SEA ?

And what does the CLOUD represent ??

And what does the SEA , represent ??

O how about 1 Cor 15:29 where they are BAPTIZED for the DEAD ??

And in MARK 16:16 that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved ?


dan p

The answers to these questions are out there. May God grant you the strenght and wisdom to find these answers on your own.

 

[lanceleo]

The act of baptism don't save a person .... Jesus does .... baptism is not a requirement to be saved ... rather a outward display of what has already happened inside.

After repentance and receiving Christ as our Savior, the next step in our Christian life is water baptism. We should note carefully that water baptism is God's command:



Acts 2:38

King James Version

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Water baptism is not something about which we can please ourselves. It is essential for every believer in Christ to obey this command in the Word of God. And it is also essential to obey it in the biblical way. Jesus said:



John 14:21

King James Version

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If water baptism saves us, why wasn't Paul sent to baptize but to preach and show God's power?

I'd encourage a more robust and serious reading of what Paul says to the Corinthians.

Paul's concern was, based on how easily the Corinthians divided themselves into factions claiming different apostles as their own "I am of Paul" "I am of Apollos" "I am of Peter" etc, that had he been personally involved in the baptisms of the Corinthian Faithful that it would have exasperated the situation worse than it already was.

One can just imagine one saying "I was baptized by Paul" and another "I was baptized by Apollos" and it just getting worse. Paul's point is that it doesn't matter if it was Paul or Apollos or Peter or anyone else: The same Holy Spirit unites them all as one Body in Christ, for the grace and power of their baptism does not come from Paul or Apollos or Peter etc, but from the Holy Spirit. Regardless of who planted the seed and who watered, God is the One who creates faith and converts--it is not the minister of Word and Sacrament that does anything, but God. It is God's Word and God's Sacraments; God's work and power and grace. Thus all are in Christ, united together by the Holy Spirit.

I think if you go back and read through St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians you'll see this is the case, allow the text to speak for itself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[lanceleo]

I'd encourage a more robust and serious reading of what Paul says to the Corinthians.

Paul's concern was, based on how easily the Corinthians divided themselves into factions claiming different apostles as their own "I am of Paul" "I am of Apollos" "I am of Peter" etc, that had he been personally involved in the baptisms of the Corinthian Faithful that it would have exasperated the situation worse than it already was.

One can just imagine one saying "I was baptized by Paul" and another "I was baptized by Apollos" and it just getting worse. Paul's point is that it doesn't matter if it was Paul or Apollos or Peter or anyone else: The same Holy Spirit unites them all as one Body in Christ, for the grace and power of their baptism does not come from Paul or Apollos or Peter etc, but from the Holy Spirit. Regardless of who planted the seed and who watered, God is the One who creates faith and converts--it is not the minister of Word and Sacrament that does anything, but God. It is God's Word and God's Sacraments; God's work and power and grace. Thus all are in Christ, united together by the Holy Spirit.

I think if you go back and read through St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians you'll see this is the case, allow the text to speak for itself.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, Paul did not baptize many for the sake of keeping the church together and to prevent schism. I'd like to believe that someone else did the baptizing for the masses after receiving Paul's message so that none can boast.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, Paul did not baptize many for the sake of keeping the church together and to prevent schism. I'd like to believe that someone else did the baptizing for the masses after receiving Paul's message so that none can boast.

Someone, or someones, were doing the actual baptisms. It's not like people weren't being baptized, because of course they would have been baptized. Baptism is the precious work, gift, and power of God, His Holy Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[eleos1954]

After repentance and receiving Christ as our Savior, the next step in our Christian life is water baptism. We should note carefully that water baptism is God's command:



Acts 2:38

King James Version

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Water baptism is not something about which we can please ourselves. It is essential for every believer in Christ to obey this command in the Word of God. And it is also essential to obey it in the biblical way. Jesus said:



John 14:21

King James Versio

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

It is baptism that saves you ... Jesus does! Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that our works don’t contribute to our salvation. We can’t earn salvation, even by being baptized.

To think Jesus would not save a person because they weren't water baptized is non-sensical.

That thinking would lead to anyone getting baptized is saved ... and this is not so .... it is the condition of the heart that Jesus looks at.

Anyone can walk away from Jesus at any time ... even if they have been baptized ... we see this happen all the time. There are people who got baptized and then became atheists and/or chose to live in sin.

 

[lanceleo]

It is baptism that saves you ... Jesus does! Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that our works don’t contribute to our salvation. We can’t earn salvation, even by being baptized.

To think Jesus would not save a person because they weren't water baptized is non-sensical.

That thinking would lead to anyone getting baptized is saved ... and this is not so .... it is the condition of the heart that Jesus looks at.

Anyone can walk away from Jesus at any time ... even if they have been baptized ... we see this happen all the time. There are people who got baptized and then became atheists and/or chose to live in sin.

Yes but as a command it has to be obeyed to the best of our ability.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes but as a command it has to be obeyed to the best of our ability.

It symbolizes our death and resurrection with Christ. When people have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior .... most will want to be baptized .... but it is not a requirement .... also Jesus did not command baptism .... rather teach all to observe all His commandments (teach all nations)

One of the instructions the Lord gave His Apostles was, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20).

Yes, we are to follow His commandments .... but baptism is not a commandment ... teach all nations about all His commandments.

 

[lanceleo]

It symbolizes our death and resurrection with Christ. When people have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior .... most will want to be baptized .... but it is not a requirement .... also Jesus did not command baptism .... rather teach all to observe all His commandments (teach all nations)

One of the instructions the Lord gave His Apostles was, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20).

Yes, we are to follow His commandments .... but baptism is not a commandment ... teach all nations about all His commandments.

Yes Jesus commanded his disciples to teach all nation about his commandments but what are these commandments? Isn't baptism one of them as so highlighted by Peter? Surely Peter is one of the disciples that Jesus commands to teach all nations his commandments?

Acts 2:38
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes Jesus commanded his disciples to teach all nation about his commandments but what are these commandments? Isn't baptism one of them as so highlighted by Peter? Surely Peter is one of the disciples that Jesus commands to teach all nations his commandments?

Acts 2:38
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism symbolizes Christ’s death and resurrection. By going through this symbolic act, we proclaim to accept Christ’s sacrifice and acknowledge Him as our Lord and Savior.

They were taught first .... then baptized ... an outward public confirmation of a change inside.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit ...

Acts 1:5 where Jesus says to his disciples, “John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Then in verse 8, he says, “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses.”

An important part of the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of our sins, lead us to repentance, and transform our lives to be like Jesus.

An example of being baptized by the Holy Spirit first ... then water baptism.

Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” (Acts 10 46-48)

Water baptism is symbolic of what has already happened inside. Some teach one receives the Holy Spirit only when they get water baptized ... and this is incorrect as well as shown above.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

One of the instructions the Lord gave His Apostles was, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20).

Yes, we are to follow His commandments .... but baptism is not a commandment ... teach all nations about all His commandments.

Are you saying Jesus gave a polite suggestion to be baptized?

So do you believe then baptism is optional for any Christian?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Baptism symbolizes Christ’s death and resurrection. By going through this symbolic act, we proclaim to accept Christ’s sacrifice and acknowledge Him as our Lord and Savior.

Where does the Scripture say "Baptism is symbolic" of anything. The Greek word "symbolia" is not found in the NT---

Baptists and America evangelicals have a tendency to interpret Scripture through the "THREE S SISTERS" Symbolize, Spiritualize, Signifies.

 

[eleos1954]

Are you saying Jesus gave a polite suggestion to be baptized?

So do you believe then baptism is optional for any Christian?

I believe it's not a requirement for salvation ... but ... if one does sincerely accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior they will want to be baptized as a public declaration of the change that has taken place inside. Optional? Have no idea why a person would opt not to ... but even so ... it would not forfeit their salvation.

Baptism declares that you are a follower of Jesus Christ. It is a public confession of your faith in, and commitment to, Jesus Christ.

Water Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

they will want to be baptized as a public declaration of the change that has taken place inside.

Where does Scripture say Baptism is a public declaration? Chapter and verse please.

 

[eleos1954]

Where does Scripture say Baptism is a public declaration? Chapter and verse please.

We see throughout the new testament how it was practiced.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9

8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

Baptism can be privately or publicly .... somebody is there doing the baptizing ... most times it's done publicly ... but if there is physical limitations involved there is nothing wrong with getting baptized privately .... I know of one lady who was severely disabled and she got baptized in her bathtub.

Matthew 10

32Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

Baptism presents an opportunity to the new believer to confess before others that Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Baptism is a symbol of Christ's burial and resurrection. Our entrance into the water during baptism identifies us with Christ's death on the cross, His burial in the tomb and His resurrection from the dead.

Water Baptism is symbolic ... not a requirement.

Ephesians 4:4-6​

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

If there is one baptism which is it water baptizing or baptism of the Holy Spirit?​

What about those who preceded the new testament act of water baptizing?
Are they lost? Certainly not. Foolish to believe so.

We can confess privately or publicly as well ... no baptism required.

To think Jesus would withhold salvation because one wasn't water baptized is utter non-sense.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

What about those who preceded the new testament act of water baptizing?
Are they lost? Certainly not. Foolish to believe so.

Baptism was instituted by Jesus after his resurrection but before his ascension into heaven. The first Christian baptism occurred on the Day of Pentecost some fifty days after Jesus' resurrection. NOBODY WAS BAPTIZED INTO THE CHRISTIAN FAITH BEFORE THE DAY OF PENTECOST! A basic understanding of the content of Scripture will reveal this. Where do you get this idea that Christian Baptism existed before the day of Pentecost? You certainly don't get it from Scripture!

I am completely done with this conversation.

 

[AlightSeeker]

I'd encourage a more robust and serious reading of what Paul says to the Corinthians.

Paul's concern was, based on how easily the Corinthians divided themselves into factions claiming different apostles as their own "I am of Paul" "I am of Apollos" "I am of Peter" etc, that had he been personally involved in the baptisms of the Corinthian Faithful that it would have exasperated the situation worse than it already was.

One can just imagine one saying "I was baptized by Paul" and another "I was baptized by Apollos" and it just getting worse. Paul's point is that it doesn't matter if it was Paul or Apollos or Peter or anyone else: The same Holy Spirit unites them all as one Body in Christ, for the grace and power of their baptism does not come from Paul or Apollos or Peter etc, but from the Holy Spirit. Regardless of who planted the seed and who watered, God is the One who creates faith and converts--it is not the minister of Word and Sacrament that does anything, but God. It is God's Word and God's Sacraments; God's work and power and grace. Thus all are in Christ, united together by the Holy Spirit.

I think if you go back and read through St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians you'll see this is the case, allow the text to speak for itself.

-CryptoLutheran

I see Paul's words quite well in my opinion.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I'd encourage a more robust and serious reading of what Paul says to the Corinthians.

Paul's concern was, based on how easily the Corinthians divided themselves into factions claiming different apostles as their own "I am of Paul" "I am of Apollos" "I am of Peter" etc, that had he been personally involved in the baptisms of the Corinthian Faithful that it would have exasperated the situation worse than it already was.

One can just imagine one saying "I was baptized by Paul" and another "I was baptized by Apollos" and it just getting worse. Paul's point is that it doesn't matter if it was Paul or Apollos or Peter or anyone else: The same Holy Spirit unites them all as one Body in Christ, for the grace and power of their baptism does not come from Paul or Apollos or Peter etc, but from the Holy Spirit. Regardless of who planted the seed and who watered, God is the One who creates faith and converts--it is not the minister of Word and Sacrament that does anything, but God. It is God's Word and God's Sacraments; God's work and power and grace. Thus all are in Christ, united together by the Holy Spirit.

I think if you go back and read through St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians you'll see this is the case, allow the text to speak for itself.

-CryptoLutheran

So much of the Credo's criticisms against baptism are simply "Cut and Paste" arguments. I Cor. 1:17 is a case in point. Baptists and American Evangelical see something that diminishes the importance of baptism and just quote it without studying the context. This happens all the time.

I became a member of CF during the Covid epidemic as my medical condition necessitated isolation. I decided to study how Baptists and American Evangelicals justify their beliefs in "Believers Baptism," "Age of Accountability" and objection to "Original Sin" etc. So I wrote many OP's stating my beliefs as a corrective to their simplistic "cut and paste" arguments.

Major problem with Baptists and American Evangelicals: TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT RULES FOR INTERPRETING SCRIPTURE. One set is for Scripture in general, and another completely different set for interpreting just the doctrine of baptism. And they don't even know they do it. Again a "Cut and Paste" belief. More on this later.

 

[AlightSeeker]

So much of the Credo's criticisms against baptism are simply "Cut and Paste" arguments. I Cor. 1:17 is a case in point. Baptists and American Evangelical see something that diminishes the importance of baptism and just quote it without studying the context. This happens all the time.

I became a member of CF during the Covid epidemic as my medical condition necessitated isolation. I decided to study how Baptists and American Evangelicals justify their beliefs in "Believers Baptism," "Age of Accountability" and objection to "Original Sin" etc. So I wrote many OP's stating my beliefs as a corrective to their simplistic "cut and paste" arguments.

Major problem with Baptists and American Evangelicals: TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT RULES FOR INTERPRETING SCRIPTURE. One set is for Scripture in general, and another completely different set for interpreting just the doctrine of baptism. And they don't even know they do it. Again a "Cut and Paste" belief. More on this later.

I see the baptism of fire and spirit that was promised to us. Some people diminish the meaning of that i think. Perhaps thats why Paul didn't come to baptize with water but to show and Perhaps teach the baptism of fire and spirit so that people won't have faith in human religion but on God's power demonstrated by the Spirit.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

baptism of fire and spirit that was promised to us.

There you go again. An out-of-context quotation and belief. Unbelievable.

It is an open question whether or not Matthew 3:11 does refer to the Pentecost event of Christian baptism and the giving of the Spirit for rebirth. Contextually, Matthew 3:7-12 is addressing the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected John’s baptism and his preaching. This is clear.

I am not sure at this point what John's statement means by his usage of "spirit baptism" but I am sure of what "fire" means. It is judgment and no Christian wants to be apart of that.

A POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION: In Matthew 3:10, John said that “even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Mt 3:10). In other words, those who would not repent would be destroyed by a judgment of fire. As a general rule, when a word is clearly defined by an author, and he uses the same word again within the same context, we presume that he has the same meaning in mind in both instances. It would stand to reason, then, that if the “fire” of verse 10 refers to judgment, so does the “fire” of verse 11.

If that were not enough, immediately after speaking of the baptism of fire, John went on to say “his winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire” (Mt 3:12). Verse 12 elaborates on and explains verse 11.

It is possible John has two groups of people in mind: those who respond to Jesus in repentance, and those who do not. Those who respond in repentance will be gathered into the barn (saved), while those who do not repent will be burned (damned). Burned with what? Fire. In context, then, the baptism with “the Holy Spirit and fire” John spoke of was a single baptism with a double effect. Those who believe and repent would be baptized with the Spirit, whereas those who do not believe and do not repent will be baptized with fiery judgment by the God who is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). Both are called a baptism.

This may sound weird to us because we associate baptism with something good. However, “baptism” is also associated with negative things, such as death. In Mark 10:38-39 and Luke 12:50, Jesus spoke of His death as a baptism. So whether the baptism is good or bad depends on the context. In the context of Matthew 3, the baptism is both good and bad. It’s good for the repentant, but bad for the unrepentant. The repentant will be given the Holy Spirit while the unrepentant will be judged.

I need to do much more work in this area. Context. Context. Context.