How can baptism be required for salvation?

[BNR32FAN]

Again, this is not me coming up with an idea and looking through Scripture to find evidence that says what I want.

No I wouldn’t make that assumption or accusation against you brother

 

[BNR32FAN]

The gospel points to The Messiah who is salvation. Just like the cross, the gospel saves no one, they all point to The Messiah. Or at least they should if taught correctly, if they just stop at the gospel or the cross they fall short .

The cross has nothing to do with what we do to receive salvation the cross is a reference to what Christ did. Paul specifically stated that the gospel is the power unto salvation in Romans 1:16.

 

[Doug Brents]

Paul said that the gospel is the power unto salvation. To me that means that a person can be saved by believing the gospel. If baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation then the gospel would not be the power unto salvation because salvation cannot be attained by the gospel itself.

Again, that is picking and choosing passages and ignoring others to arrive at what makes you feel good about your doctrine.

You MUST consider ALL of what God has said. Yes the Gospel is the power to save because it points to Christ who paid the price for your salvation. The Gospel also says you must obey Christ to receive His blessings. Belief (mental assent) is only part of that obedience.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, that is picking and choosing passages and ignoring others to arrive at what makes you feel good about your doctrine.

No that’s not true at all because Acts 2:38 doesn’t teach what your saying it does. It does not state baptism is a requirement for salvation. I’m quoting the verses that state what is necessary for salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, that is picking and choosing passages and ignoring others to arrive at what makes you feel good about your doctrine.

You MUST consider ALL of what God has said. Yes the Gospel is the power to save because it points to Christ who paid the price for your salvation. The Gospel also says you must obey Christ to receive His blessings. Belief (mental assent) is only part of that obedience.

And we must abide/remain in Him as well. Yes I understand that not all of the requirements for salvation exist in any one verse in the scriptures. I absolutely agree with you on that but Acts 2:38 doesn’t say that baptism is a requirement. Just because Peter told them to do it doesn’t make it a requirement. There are verses that specifically state that if you don’t repent, if you don’t believe, or if you don’t abide in Christ you will not be saved. There is no verse that says if you aren’t baptized you won’t be saved.

 

[YeshuaFan]

A person is not a “believer” (saved) until AFTER they are baptized.

Holy Spirit indwells and seals the person at moment received Jesus as lord thru faith!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Are you implying that he wasn’t a believer when he may have previously baptized? Because we don’t know that.

No, stating that the NT example is one is first saved then water baptized!

 

[d taylor]

The cross has nothing to do with what we do to receive salvation the cross is a reference to what Christ did. Paul specifically stated that the gospel is the power unto salvation in Romans 1:16.

Do you have a reference where Paul defines salvation in Romans as justification and not deliverance.

In other words in Romans Paul is addressing believers about being saved from physical wrath (death) and not eternal wrath (spiritual death).

Romans 1: A Concise Commentary* – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Albion]

Baptism is not a “sacrament”.

So that is your opinion and it's a very much minority view among Christian churches. Moving along....

A sacrament is something that, in and of itself, imparts grace.

Well, it's NOT "in and of itself." That's a mistake.

The catholics believe that, regardless of the belief or non-belief of the subject, getting baptized saves.

No, they don't. If that were the case, you could be baptized as an adult and live a wanton life, but, having been baptized you would be guaranteed salvation. I don't know anyone who thinks that way.

Then you have the vast majority of “christians” in the world who believe that we are saved because we believe (mental assent), and then all actions come after that. Again, they couldn’t be more wrong. Faith without action is dead and worthless.

Faith without works is dead, as James wrote, but he was not saying by that what you are saying here. His point was that merely claiming to be a Christian isn't sufficient. It takes a genuine commitment.

 

[Albion]

A couple of quotes here.
From: https://montevistacoc.com/multimedia-archive/is-baptism-by-sprinkling-pouring-or-immersion/
“The word “baptism” is an anglicized word that was coined in 1611 in the translation of the King James’ Version. Sprinkling was introduced as a substitute for and on a par with baptism at the Council of Ravenna in 1311 and subsequently has been adopted by protestant denominationalism.

A couple of generalizations here are not what you wrote before and which I had to point out to you were in error. Go back and read what was "said" there if you are in doubt.

In the 1600’s when the Anglican translators were confronted with translating the Greek baptizo (and other forms) into English, they found themselves in a dilemma. To translate baptizo as “to immerse” would be to deny authority for their practice of sprinkling.

Sprinkling wasn't their practice.

 

[Doug Brents]

Since you pick and chose verses, how do you know your order is right. Why is it not repent, confess, baptize and believe. or confess, repent, believe and baptize. etc.....

Show me where your order is used in any one single area in The Bible. When a person is telling a person how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life

Rom 10:14 - “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”
Here we have a start. One must hear the Gospel to believe it. And after he believes it he can call on the Lord.
Then in Acts 2:38 - “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
In verse 37 these men were “pricked in their hearts”, they believed. Then Peter tells them to repent and be baptized.
Then we have Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Matt10:32, and Rom 10:9-10 which all talk about calling on the name of Jesus and confessing Him. This is done right at them time of baptism.
Finally we see in Rom 6:1-11 and Col 2:11-14 that we are United with Christ in death and raised with Him by the Holy Spirit in baptism.
So when we look at all of these passages together, we see a natural progression.
First we hear the gospel.
Next we believe the gospel.
Next can come repentance or confession, but both should come at about the same time, I think.
Finally comes baptism during which the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us with Christ.
But from belief to baptism should not be more than a few hours at most. In every example of a salvation story in the book of Acts, there is much haste and urgency placed on moving from belief to baptism. The Corinthian jailer was baptized the same hour of the night, etc.

With all of that said, we have:
Hear the gospel
Believe the gospel
Repent of sins and confess Jesus’ name
Be baptized into Christ.

 

[d taylor]

Rom 10:14 - “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”
Here we have a start. One must hear the Gospel to believe it. And after he believes it he can call on the Lord.
Then in Acts 2:38 - “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
In verse 37 these men were “pricked in their hearts”, they believed. Then Peter tells them to repent and be baptized.
Then we have Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Matt10:32, and Rom 10:9-10 which all talk about calling on the name of Jesus and confessing Him. This is done right at them time of baptism.
Finally we see in Rom 6:1-11 and Col 2:11-14 that we are United with Christ in death and raised with Him by the Holy Spirit in baptism.
So when we look at all of these passages together, we see a natural progression.
First we hear the gospel.
Next we believe the gospel.
Next can come repentance or confession, but both should come at about the same time, I think.
Finally comes baptism during which the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us with Christ.
But from belief to baptism should not be more than a few hours at most. In every example of a salvation story in the book of Acts, there is much haste and urgency placed on moving from belief to baptism. The Corinthian jailer was baptized the same hour of the night, etc.

With all of that said, we have:
Hear the gospel
Believe the gospel
Repent of sins and confess Jesus’ name
Be baptized into Christ.

What you posted proves nothing

 

[enoob57]

John's baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan is not described in Scripture as having been done by submerging Christ under the waters

Mark 1:10 (KJV)
[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

 

[Albion]

Mark 1:10 (KJV)
[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

"out of the water." Yes, that is often misunderstood to mean that he came up from under the water.

But that is an example of making a Bible verse fit a preconceived notion.

When Jesus came out of the water, he walked onto the river bank. This of course meant going up, just as if you were to be in swimming and then decided to go back to shore.

The water is always lower than the banks of the river or else there wouldn't be much of a river but more of a swamp...and that's speaking of the surface of the river. You are suggesting that Jesus was standing on the bottom of the river, not the surface, when being baptized by John. To leave the river is to go upwards.

In addition, one of the earliest visual representations of the baptism of Jesus shows him standing erect while John poured water upon his head, so that is the understanding of Jesus' baptism by those who were closest to the event.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, stating that the NT example is one is first saved then water baptized!

Yes I agree but his actions on the cross may have been an act of repentance. We don’t know if he was a believer before or if he was baptized or not all we know is that he humbled himself to Christ and ask for forgiveness. So we can’t use his example as evidence against the necessity of baptism because we don’t know if he was baptized or not. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[Doug Brents]

That’s an assumption, not conclusive evidence. He could’ve had them baptized as an outward expression of their faith.

Actually, it is the result of intense, long term, Spirit led study. It is clear that Cornelius was baptized in water. And it is also clear that water baptism is commanded by the Spirit of God as the point at which our sins are cut from us and we are united with Christ in His death and resurrection. Since the covenant in Jesus' Blood was sealed with His death, the same conditions applied to Cornelius as apply to us today, "Repent and be baptized for (in order to receive) forgiveness of sin" (Acts 2:38).

The path is repentance and believing in the gospel not water baptism. The scriptures repeatedly state that whosoever believes will be saved not whosoever believes and is baptized in water will be saved.

For that to be true would require that many Scriptures be lies or simply ignored. But 2 Tim 3:16 says that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..." (2 Tim 3:16). And that means that ALL Scripture must be considered when making our doctrine, not just the ones that agree with your preconception.

 

[Albion]

deleted

 

[Doug Brents]

Acts 2:38 doesn’t say that brother.

“Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He told them to repent and be baptized he didn’t say that baptism is required for salvation. The people in Acts 8 followed these instructions and they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit. Peter and John had to come and lay hands on them so that they would receive the Holy Spirit.

What is the condition, and what is the result in Acts 2:38?
Condition: Repent and be baptized, both are part of the one condition.
Result: You will be forgiven of your sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say immediately, but it does say you will receive the Holy Spirit. And when we look at Rom 6:1-11 and Col 2:11-14 we see that it is during baptism that the Spirit cuts our sin from us, unites us with Christ in likeness of His resurrection, and adds us to the Body of Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

No that’s not true at all because Acts 2:38 doesn’t teach what your saying it does. It does not state baptism is a requirement for salvation. I’m quoting the verses that state what is necessary for salvation.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
"For" here means "in order to receive", as we see in Acts 3:19. "Repent" and "be baptized" are two parts of one condition. If either is not done, then the reward (forgiveness of sin (salvation)) is not received. This verse could not be more clear.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you have a reference where Paul defines salvation in Romans as justification and not deliverance.

Well not in Romans but in Colossians

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In other words in Romans Paul is addressing believers about being saved from physical wrath (death) and not eternal wrath (spiritual death).

So those who believe the gospel don’t experience a physical death?