How can baptism be required for salvation?

[Doug Brents]

And we must abide/remain in Him as well. Yes I understand that not all of the requirements for salvation exist in any one verse in the scriptures. I absolutely agree with you on that but Acts 2:38 doesn’t say that baptism is a requirement. Just because Peter told them to do it doesn’t make it a requirement. There are verses that specifically state that if you don’t repent, if you don’t believe, or if you don’t abide in Christ you will not be saved. There is no verse that says if you aren’t baptized you won’t be saved.

Ahh. Now I understand where you are coming from a little better.

You are not correct however. Rom 6:3-4 says, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
If we are not baptized, then we are not buried with Him. If we are not buried with Him, we cannot be raised like Him.
Also, Rom 6:3 and Gal 3:27 both say that we are "baptized INTO Christ". If we are not baptized, we are not "in" Christ. You must go through the door in order to be in the room.
Also, John 3:36 (NASB) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Notice that "believes" is contrasted with "obey". Yes, some translations use "not believe", but about half of them say "obey" in the second part of the verse.
Also, Eph 5:25-27, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."
Washing of water with the Word = baptism. If you have not been washed, then you are still dirty in sin. If you are still in sin, you cannot inherit Heaven.

 

[Doug Brents]

Holy Spirit indwells and seals the person at moment received Jesus as lord thru faith!

Indeed. And what is faith?
Just as the body requires the soul to be alive, so too faith requires action to be alive (James 2:26). That action that is required is the action that God commands through His Scriptures. Which brings us back to Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, they don't. If that were the case, you could be baptized as an adult and live a wanton life, but, having been baptized you would be guaranteed salvation. I don't know anyone who thinks that way.

I know thousands who believe that. Those who believe "Once Saved Always Saved" teach exactly that. There could be nothing further from the truth though.

Faith without works is dead, as James wrote, but he was not saying by that what you are saying here. His point was that merely claiming to be a Christian isn't sufficient. It takes a genuine commitment.

Indeed, it does take a genuine commitment. But as we see in Eph 2:8-9, faith comes BEFORE salvation is received. And as we see from Heb 5:9, Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him.

 

[Doug Brents]

What you posted proves nothing

You asked me to detail the Scriptures that put an order to the steps taken to receive salvation. What you are basically saying is that Scripture is meaningless to you, because you have your mind made up and nothing will change your preconception. If that is the case, then there is no reason to continue to discuss anything. If, however, you are willing to address Scripture with an open mind and read what is there instead of what your preconceptions tells you to look for, then we can continue and I will help you see that Scripture says exactly what I have been saying.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you have a reference where Paul defines salvation in Romans as justification and not deliverance.

In other words in Romans Paul is addressing believers about being saved from physical wrath (death) and not eternal wrath (spiritual death).

Romans 1: A Concise Commentary* – Grace Evangelical Society

Whoever wrote that commentary is wrong. Here take a look here’s a quote from your commentary

In addition, in Rom 5:9-10, the experience from which we are saved or delivered is specified as “wrath” (5:9). Although this word, too, has a traditional meaning (i.e., the wrath associated with hell), Paul’s epistle does not support this. In Romans, wrath is a manifestation of God’s temporal displeasure. This is clear from 1:18ff and 2:5-8. Given the close proximity of 1:16 to 1:18, and in the light of 5:9-10, we may conclude that in Rom 1:16 deliverance refers to being rescued, or “saved,” from the divine temporal anger that is so vividly described in Rom 1:18-32.

So Romans 2:5-8 is about God’s “temporal anger”?

“But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul is talking about Judgement Day in verse 5. “the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God”. There is no more temporal punishment on Judgement Day. God’s wrath on Judgement Day is eternal. One Judgement Day comes there are no more chances the only wrath that takes place on Judgement Day is being condemned to the lake of fire. Furthermore he contrasts the difference between eternal life and wrath in verses 7 and 8.

“to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:7-8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The contrast between eternal life and God’s wrath on Judgement Day is either eternal life or eternal suffering. Again there’s no temporal punishment on Judgement Day because time is up. Once Judgement Day is here that’s when the eternal punishment begins.

Romans 1:16 is not about salvation from temporal punishment it’s referring to salvation from eternal punishment just like his reference in chapter 2. The gospel has the power to elicit a response in a person and bring them to repentance so they may be saved from God’s eternal wrath. Any time you see the word saved or salvation and it doesn’t specify what the person is saved from it is in reference to being saved from eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

 

[d taylor]

You asked me to detail the Scriptures that put an order to the steps taken to receive salvation. What you are basically saying is that Scripture is meaningless to you, because you have your mind made up and nothing will change your preconception. If that is the case, then there is no reason to continue to discuss anything. If, however, you are willing to address Scripture with an open mind and read what is there instead of what your preconceptions tells you to look for, then we can continue and I will help you see that Scripture says exactly what I have been saying.

You seem to not understand that a scripture verse from one book can not just be plucked out and grouped with another verse from another book and combined together to form a salvation belief or any kind of belief.

These books are written to a certain audience addressing very specific situations and problems. They have to be kept in their context to understand their purpose and meaning.

 

[Albion]

I know thousands who believe that.

I doubt that very much. Perhaps you misunderstood my point there, but any churchmen who are indeed that far out of the mainstream of Christian orthodoxy are not what we should be focusing on in any case.

Those who believe "Once Saved Always Saved" teach exactly that.

Oh dear. Your misunderstanding about that seems to be the reason for the other mistake.

Indeed, it does take a genuine commitment. But as we see in Eph 2:8-9, faith comes BEFORE salvation is received.

Yes. That elementary truth doesn't change anything in our conversation, though.

 

[Doug Brents]

You seem to not understand that a scripture verse from one book can not just be plucked out and grouped with another verse from another book and combined together to form a salvation belief or any kind of belief.

These books are written to a certain audience addressing very specific situations and problems. They have to be kept in their context to understand their purpose and meaning.

For the most part, you are correct. However, taken in context, they must all be taken as a whole. There is only ONE author of Scripture. It is not the 40 men who put pen to paper, but the Lord God whose Word it is. So it can all be taken as one, as long as the context of the situation is considered. And that has been considered in all of what I have said here.

 

[Doug Brents]

Oh dear. Your misunderstanding about that seems to be the reason for the other mistake.

No, I have had some tell me exactly that. There was no misunderstanding, other than their doctrinal error.

Yes. That elementary truth doesn't change anything in our conversation, though.

On the contrary, it does. Faith, obedience to God's commands, must come before salvation is received. And His commands are to believe the Gospel, repent of our sins and turn from Satan back to God, confess Jesus as our Lord, and be baptized into Christ. Then we receive forgiveness, are added to the Church, resurrected with Christ, and adopted to become coheirs with Christ; only after we have exhibited our faith in obedience to the commands He says lead to salvation.

 

[Albion]

No, I have had some tell me exactly that. There was no misunderstanding, other than their doctrinal error.

"Some," eh? That I can believe because there are almost always "some" who get any church teaching wrong. However, as you wrote it in the previous post you included everyone who believes in OSAS.

On the contrary, it does. Faith, obedience to God's commands, must come before salvation is received. And His commands are to believe the Gospel, repent of our sins and turn from Satan back to God, confess Jesus as our Lord, and be baptized into Christ. Then we receive forgiveness, are added to the Church, resurrected with Christ, and adopted to become coheirs with Christ; only after we have exhibited our faith in obedience to the commands He says lead to salvation.

As I said, nothing in that overview changes anything we've been debating.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually, it is the result of intense, long term, Spirit led study. It is clear that Cornelius was baptized in water. And it is also clear that water baptism is commanded by the Spirit of God as the point at which our sins are cut from us and we are united with Christ in His death and resurrection. Since the covenant in Jesus' Blood was sealed with His death, the same conditions applied to Cornelius as apply to us today, "Repent and be baptized for (in order to receive) forgiveness of sin" (Acts 2:38).


For that to be true would require that many Scriptures be lies or simply ignored. But 2 Tim 3:16 says that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..." (2 Tim 3:16). And that means that ALL Scripture must be considered when making our doctrine, not just the ones that agree with your preconception.

Like I said before there is no verse that says you must be baptized to be saved. There are verses that say you must repent, you must believe, and you must abide in Christ. Atonement takes place with repentance. When a person turns away from sin and towards Christ their sins have been forgiven. Christ forgave many people during His ministry none of them were baptized.

 

[Doug Brents]

As I said, nothing in that overview changes anything we've been debating.

Sorry, I lost track of what exactly you and I were discussing since it is a little off topic on this thread.

As to the source of the word "baptize": it is defiantly from the Greek baptizo, which means to dip or immerse.
Strong's Concordance
baptizó: to dip, sink
Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Definition: to dip, sink
Usage: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.
As to the reason they transliterated the word instead of translating it properly: I believe that they still had the practice in the anglican church as they did in the catholic chruch of dipping and pouring in 1600 as they began to have in the 1300s (as the previous quote and reference indicated). Whether that was their motivation, or if it was another motivation, I don't know, but that seems to be the most likely motivation that I have ever read about. Obviously, I was not there, but seeing as they did a very good job with most of the rest of the Bible, it doesn't make much sense for them to translate all the other words properly, and then transliterate baptizo into baptize when immerse would have been just as easy to write.

Since your handle is "fact checker", why do you think they transliterated instead of translating baptizo?

 

[Albion]

Sorry, I lost track of what exactly you and I were discussing since it is a little off topic on this thread.

Yeah, I was afraid it had drifted that way.

As to the source of the word "baptize": it is defiantly from the Greek baptizo, which means to dip or immerse.

...as well as several other actions, including "wash."

The message here is that it does not necessarily mean to immerse, so pointing to the word and claiming that it proves immersion is a non-starter.

As to the reason they transliterated the word instead of translating it properly: I believe that they still had the practice in the anglican church as they did in the catholic chruch of dipping and pouring in 1600 as they began to have in the 1300s (as the previous quote and reference indicated).

Well, of course they did. And you just noted that the word can mean to dip. So it is wrong to claim, as you did, that their standard was baptism by sprinkling or even that it became the usual method at any other time.

 

[d taylor]

Whoever wrote that commentary is wrong. Here take a look here’s a quote from your commentary

In addition, in Rom 5:9-10, the experience from which we are saved or delivered is specified as “wrath” (5:9). Although this word, too, has a traditional meaning (i.e., the wrath associated with hell), Paul’s epistle does not support this. In Romans, wrath is a manifestation of God’s temporal displeasure. This is clear from 1:18ff and 2:5-8. Given the close proximity of 1:16 to 1:18, and in the light of 5:9-10, we may conclude that in Rom 1:16 deliverance refers to being rescued, or “saved,” from the divine temporal anger that is so vividly described in Rom 1:18-32.

So Romans 2:5-8 is about God’s “temporal anger”?

“But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul is talking about Judgement Day in verse 5. “the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God”. There is no more temporal punishment on Judgement Day. God’s wrath on Judgement Day is eternal. One Judgement Day comes there are no more chances the only wrath that takes place on Judgement Day is being condemned to the lake of fire. Furthermore he contrasts the difference between eternal life and wrath in verses 7 and 8.

“to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:7-8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The contrast between eternal life and God’s wrath on Judgement Day is either eternal life or eternal suffering. Again there’s no temporal punishment on Judgement Day because time is up. Once Judgement Day is here that’s when the eternal punishment begins.

Romans 1:16 is not about salvation from temporal punishment it’s referring to salvation from eternal punishment just like his reference in chapter 2. The gospel has the power to elicit a response in a person and bring them to repentance so they may be saved from God’s eternal wrath. Any time you see the word saved or salvation and it doesn’t specify what the person is saved from it is in reference to being saved from eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

We will just have to disagree, Zane was an exceptional Bible teacher.

https://www.amazon.com/Romans-Deliverance-Zane-C-Hodges/dp/0978877365

 

[BNR32FAN]

What is the condition, and what is the result in Acts 2:38?
Condition: Repent and be baptized, both are part of the one condition.
Result: You will be forgiven of your sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say immediately, but it does say you will receive the Holy Spirit. And when we look at Rom 6:1-11 and Col 2:11-14 we see that it is during baptism that the Spirit cuts our sin from us, unites us with Christ in likeness of His resurrection, and adds us to the Body of Christ.

In my opinion Romans 6 and Col 2 are referring to the baptism of the Spirit not water baptism. They both are referring to becoming a new creation which is thru the Spirit.

I was baptized as a child when I was about 5 years old and it had no affect on me. When I was 38 years old I came to Christ and became a new creation. I was completely dead to my old ways and walking in the Spirit months before I was baptized a second time. I had to wait until my church was offering baptism because they only do it like twice a year, but I didn’t have to wait for the indwelling Holy Spirit and I don’t believe that if I had died before my church offered baptism that I would’ve burned in the lake of fire. I believe there are many who convert and come to Christ who may not even think about baptism. Maybe they didn’t realize the importance or maybe they didn’t have the opportunity, maybe there wasn’t a priest or pastor around. Whatever the reason I don’t believe God will condemn anyone who has truly accepted Christ because they failed to get baptized in water.

 

[Doug Brents]

Like I said before there is no verse that says you must be baptized to be saved. There are verses that say you must repent, you must believe, and you must abide in Christ. Atonement takes place with repentance. When a person turns away from sin and towards Christ their sins have been forgiven. Christ forgave many people during His ministry none of them were baptized.

Again, not true.

Rom 6:1-11 and Col 2:11-14 both say that salvation occurs with baptism, not repentance.
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." - Rom 6:1-11

"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which (in what? in baptism!) you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." - Col 2:11-14

Neither of these passages talk about repentance at all. But they do tell us that our sins are removed (forgiven), and that we are united with Christ in likeness of His resurrection. And when does it say that happens? IN BAPTISM!

And yes, Jesus could forgive sin at any point up to the point at which He died. When He died, his "Last Will and Testament" (the New Covenant) was sealed and could not be changed any more. That Will is spelled out in what we have as the Bible.
Heb 9:16-17 - "For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives."
Jesus made the covenant in His blood, so while He was alive he could change it. But when He died, it was from then forward immutable.

 

[Albion]

Again, not true.

Rom 6:1-11 and Col 2:11-14 both say that salvation occurs with baptism, not repentance.

Salvation occurs with baptism, however, is not the opposite of saying salvation is impossible without baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

In my opinion Romans 6 and Col 2 are referring to the baptism of the Spirit not water baptism. They both are referring to becoming a new creation which is thru the Spirit.

Since there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), and all the evidence in Acts points to it requiring water, these two passages are referring to that one baptism, water baptism.

I was baptized as a child when I was about 5 years old and it had no affect on me. When I was 38 years old I came to Christ and became a new creation. I was completely dead to my old ways and walking in the Spirit months before I was baptized a second time. I had to wait until my church was offering baptism because they only do it like twice a year, but I didn’t have to wait for the indwelling Holy Spirit and I don’t believe that if I had died before my church offered baptism that I would’ve burned in the lake of fire. I believe there are many who convert and come to Christ who may not even think about baptism. Maybe they didn’t realize the importance or maybe they didn’t have the opportunity, maybe there wasn’t a priest or pastor around. Whatever the reason I don’t believe God will condemn anyone who has truly accepted Christ because they failed to get baptized in water.

I appreciate your feelings on this, but seeing as how God is not concerned about our feelings on the matter, and is only concerned with obedience to His will, it really doesn't matter what either of us thinks or feels (sorry to put that bluntly). What matters is our submittal to HIS will. He says our sins are removed when we are baptized. Jesus Himself said that those who believe and are baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). Satan can make you "feel" all warm inside when you believe because He knows that if you believe in Christ but fail to do anything about it you remain his (Satan's). But he wants to prevent you from taking the step that puts you "in Christ" (baptism), so he works very hard to convince you that you don't have to take that step.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
"For" here means "in order to receive", as we see in Acts 3:19. "Repent" and "be baptized" are two parts of one condition. If either is not done, then the reward (forgiveness of sin (salvation)) is not received. This verse could not be more clear.

Repentance is the reason we are forgiven.

“and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Doug Brents]

Salvation occurs with baptism, however, is not the opposite of saying salvation is impossible without baptism.

Anything is possible with God. But from what He has written in the NT, it is very clear that only those who are baptized into Christ have their sins removed and are united with Christ. If you are still stained with sin, Scripture is very clear that you cannot enter Heaven.