How can baptism be required for salvation?

[d taylor]

So you need to go back and STUDY the Scriptures again.

I am guessing you are church of christ, if not you should be, you sound just like one.

 

[Doug Brents]

I think we all know this ^, but it's not a reference to baptism.

Not directly, but as Eph 2:8-9 says, faith is the conduit (pipe) through which we receive grace (salvation). So faith must come before salvation is received. That faith must be active, or it is a broken pipe (dead) and cannot carry salvation to us. So then we must search Scripture to see what things God has said lead to salvation and do those things as part of the faith that brings salvation to us.

 

[Doug Brents]

I doubt it, since sprinkling is not the prescribed method of baptism in their church. Wasn't then; and isn't now.

Yes, it was then.

 

[Doug Brents]

I am guessing you are church of christ, if not you should be, you sound just like one.

No. Actually I am a follower of Christ. I am not a member of any denomination, sect, or group. I worship with several congregations of several different denominations, but none of them teach the truth completely.

 

[Albion]

That is very confusing.

Well, I do agree that these last dozen or more posts have been somewhat confusing, and my hope was to sort thorough all of that and come to something solid.

Let me state as clearly as I can my understanding of what Scripture says about salvation.
1. Hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
2. Believe the Gospel.
3. Repent of sins (turn away from sin toward Christ).
3. Confess Jesus as Lord publicly.
4. Be baptized.
Salvation (forgiveness of sins and resurrection with Christ) occurs at this point.
From this point forward, daily repent (turn back to God as Satan continually try’s to turn us back to himself), and study to grow deeper roots in Christ so Satan cannot uproot us or weeds choral is out (parable of the seeds) and we lose our salvation.

Okay. I don't agree with all of that, but I commend you on laying your view of baptism out in such a clearcut manner. However, this started with the suggestion that baptism saves in and of itself, or that some Christians think that way.

Actually, they don't. And then the matter of immersion came into it, but immersion is nowhere indicated in the New Testament.

And finally, there was the mystifying notion that although baptism isn't necessary, a person might be told to go through with the ceremony merely in order to show obedience to God or some such thing, which likewise is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

 

[Albion]

Not directly, but as Eph 2:8-9 says, faith is the conduit (pipe) through which we receive grace (salvation). So faith must come before salvation is received.

Sure, but that still doesn't point to baptism.

Yes, it was then.

No, it was not. And I cannot imagine where you picked up such a notion. Do you know?

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, I do agree that these last dozen or more posts have been somewhat confusing, and my hope was to sort thorough all of that and come to something solid.


Okay. I don't agree with all of that, but I commend you on laying your view of baptism out in such a clearcut manner. However, this started with the suggestion that baptism saves in and of itself, or that some Christians think that way.

Actually, they don't. And then the matter of immersion came into it, but immersion is nowhere indicated in the New Testament.

And finally, there was the mystifying notion that although baptism isn't necessary, a person might be told to go through with the ceremony merely in order to show obedience to God or some such thing, which likewise is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

Baptism is not a “sacrament”. A sacrament is something that, in and of itself, imparts grace. The catholics believe that, regardless of the belief or non-belief of the subject, getting baptized saves. They could not be more wrong.

Then you have the vast majority of “christians” in the world who believe that we are saved because we believe (mental assent), and then all actions come after that. Again, they couldn’t be more wrong. Faith without action is dead and worthless. And faith (including action on our part) must come before salvation is received.

Baptism is necessary to receive salvation. Saul was still in sin three days after believing on the road to Damascus. That is why Ananias told him to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16). If it were Spirit baptism being referenced, could the Spirit not have met him where he was sitting?No, it was water, and it was required to wash his sins away, just as it said in Acts 2:38, “Repent and be baptized so your sins can be forgiven…”.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure, but that still doesn't point to baptism.

It does when you read Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:1-11, Col 2:11-14, and many others that set baptism as a condition of our reception of salvation.

 

[YeshuaFan]

The scriptures don’t say that he wasn’t baptized. People had been being baptized for over three years by this time and they were coming in huge numbers to be baptized. It’s very possible that the thief had already been baptized.

believers Baptism is the valid NT method though!

 

[Doug Brents]

No, it was not. And I cannot imagine where you picked up such a notion. Do you know?

A couple of quotes here.
From: https://montevistacoc.com/multimedia-archive/is-baptism-by-sprinkling-pouring-or-immersion/
“The word “baptism” is an anglicized word that was coined in 1611 in the translation of the King James’ Version. Sprinkling was introduced as a substitute for and on a par with baptism at the Council of Ravenna in 1311 and subsequently has been adopted by protestant denominationalism. In the 1600’s when the Anglican translators were confronted with translating the Greek baptizo (and other forms) into English, they found themselves in a dilemma. To translate baptizo as “to immerse” would be to deny authority for their practice of sprinkling. On the other hand to render baptizo as “to sprinkle” would be a travesty and a reproach against their scholarship. And so, as a compromise, the translators simply transliterated the Greek word into English and introduced into the English language a new word “baptism.” Those who believed in sprinkling capitalized upon the resulting confusion (as people inquired as to the meaning of this new word) by telling the uninformed that “baptism” embraces several actions or modes. But this is not so, according to the scholarship of the world.

Had the Greek word baptizo been translated into English, instead of being transliterated, we would have “dip, immerse, submerge, plunge” rather than a new word “baptism.” Baptism never meant to sprinkle or pour. The Greek word for “sprinkle” is rantizo, and the word for “pour” is cheo. All three words, in both Greek and English, suggest different actions. To say that a person can be baptized by sprinkling or pouring is a contradiction of terms. It is like saying that one can run by walking or riding.”

From:Immersion, Pouring and Sprinkling A History
“Though strongly opposed soon after its appearance, even as an "exceptional" measure, pouring and then sprinkling continued to gain more and more acceptance as adequate substitutes for immersion. It was inevitable that these alternative modes would ultimately become acceptable even in "normal" circumstances. The first "official" approval of such occurred in 753 A.D., when Pope Stephen declared the alternative modes acceptable in "cases of necessity." It was not until 1311 A.D., by the council of Ravenna, that the practice of baptism by modes other than immersion was officially legislated as a matter of indifference in any circumstances of conversion.”

 

[Doug Brents]

believers Baptism is the valid NT method though!

A person is not a “believer” (saved) until AFTER they are baptized.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I understand what you are saying, and when you read chapter 11 of Acts, the reason for what happened there becomes clear. Peter explained what happened to the other Apostles and they realized that the Holy Spirit coming in the GENTILES was to show the Jews that He had accepted them into the. Hutch as well as the Jews. It did not say anything about their salvation. They were still baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.

But it still happened before they were baptized. All I’m saying is that this is evidence that some can receive the Holy Spirit without being baptized. In post 214 you said they can’t receive the Holy Spirit until they’re baptized. Furthermore in Acts 8 several people believed and were baptized and still didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until John & Peter came and prayed and laid hands on them.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12-19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This proves that the Holy Spirit can be received before being baptized, it might not be received after being baptized even if the person believes, and can be received thru the laying of hands.

 

[BNR32FAN]

believers Baptism is the valid NT method though!

Are you implying that he wasn’t a believer when he may have previously baptized? Because we don’t know that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A person is not a “believer” (saved) until AFTER they are baptized.

There are several scriptures that say people believed before being baptized. Repent, believe and be baptized. And the word believer does not mean saved. Simon Magus was a believer who was baptized and he was not saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A person is not a “believer” (saved) until AFTER they are baptized.

Most people get baptized because they believe not the other way around.

 

[Doug Brents]

But it still happened before they were baptized. All I’m saying is that this is evidence that some can receive the Holy Spirit without being baptized. In post 214 you said they can’t receive the Holy Spirit until they’re baptized. Furthermore in Acts 8 several people believed and were baptized and still didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until John & Peter came and prayed and laid hands on them.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12-19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This proves that the Holy Spirit can be received before being baptized, it might not be received after being baptized even if the person believes, and can be received thru the laying of hands.

Yes, the Holy Spirit fell on them (with miraculous manifestation) before they were saved in water baptism. This is the same thing that Acts 8 is talking about; the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. Simon didn’t want to buy the indwelling. He wanted to buy the ability to lay hands on and give miraculous power to others (Acts 8:19).

But miraculous gifts are not the indwelling. The Spirit dwells in our hearts today, yet there are no legitimate “miracle workers” today (nor, I believe, has there been one in 1900 years (since the last Apostle died) but that is a discussion for another thread).

 

[Doug Brents]

Most people get baptized because they believe not the other way around.

I agree. But most people I know use the term “believer” to indicate someone who is saved. That is why I put that in quotes.

Absolutely one must believe before they are baptized, but just believing does not make one saved. That was the point I was trying (and evidently failing) to make.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I agree. But most people I know use the term “believer” to indicate someone who is saved. That is why I put that in quotes.

Absolutely one must believe before they are baptized, but just believing does not make one saved. That was the point I was trying (and evidently failing) to make.

Actually it does. All you need is faith to be saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

Actually it does. All you need is faith to be saved.

Are you using the word faith to mean a mental only concept of belief? If so, then you are absolutely wrong.

Faith is not a mental only thing. It requires action to be alive and of any value. Without action faith is dead (James 2:26). And there are some actions (baptism among them) that are commanded as leading to salvation. If you don’t do the things that lead to salvation, then you don’t receive salvation.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Are you using the word faith to mean a mental only concept of belief? If so, then you are absolutely wrong.

Faith is not a mental only thing. It requires action to be alive and of any value. Without action faith is dead (James 2:26). And there are some actions (baptism among them) that are commanded as leading to salvation. If you don’t do the things that lead to salvation, then you don’t receive salvation.

Where is baptism commanded for salvation?