How can baptism be required for salvation?

[Eloy Craft]

John Baptized because the Holy Spirit wants to share the pattern of his life and the perfection he attained. That was to make a way to the Lord.

 

[Albion]

Baptism has many meanings beyond water immersion. I think there might be something lost in the translation to English, that makes so many people today think it can only refer to being dunked in water.

Yes. All the examples that people have given are analogies, comparing something or other that's initiatory to sacramental Baptism, which is the initiation sacrament by which a person becomes a part of Christ's church.

None of these analogies can actually refer to (water) baptism because none of them requires an administrator to perform the baptism (just as John did when baptizing Jesus, and as Jesus himself instructed his Apostles to do). Mostly, people are referring to a mystical experience that is belieied to come over the person.

 

[renniks]

Yes. All the examples that people have given are analogies,

How is Holy Spirit baptism an analogy?

 

[Albion]

How is Holy Spirit baptism an analogy?

It's not sacramental baptism.

It's another experience that is called a 'baptism' by comparision. When Jesus said to go into the world, preach the Gospel, and baptize the new members, he was quite obviously not speaking there of what is called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SamInNi]

"How can baptism be required for salvation?" is one of the most important questions I've seen on this forum.

It highlights the unbridgeable gulf that exists between Scripture teaching and man-made church tradition. Tradition's Sacrament of Baptism accepts people into church memberhip who have never genuinely placed their faith in Christ.

CF Blog: Baptism: Tradition Or Scripture?

EDIT:
See also: The Power Behind Tradition
_

 

[Eloy Craft]

How can baptism be required for salvation?" is one of the most important questions I've seen on this forum.

So important that it's a question you didn't address.

highlights the unbridgeable gulf that exists between Scripture teaching and man-made church tradition.

Ah, I see, you would rather turn it into a rant.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Baptism through water is the norm for the sacrament of Baptism, but not the only way to receive the sacrament.

John only baptized people in water. If there was another way, he would have done that too.

 

[GodLovesCats]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. RSVCE

I don't see the word "baptize" in that verse.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Such shame Matthew 7:22-23 is omitted. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Many Christians claim that the most important thing is to know Jesus. No, the most important is whether Jesus knows you.

It is not omitted.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

 

[Valletta]

John only baptized people in water. If there was another way, he would have done that too.

There was not a sacrament at that time, that was all John was allowed.

 

[Valletta]

I don't see the word "baptize" in that verse.

Correct, if you wish the word "Baptism" look elsewhere in the Bible:

1 Peter 3:20-21 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ RSVCE

 

[Albion]

"How can baptism be required for salvation?" is one of the most important questions I've seen on this forum.

That is certainly questionable, considering that there are almost NO churches that teach that baptism is required for salvation.

It highlights the unbridgeable gulf that exists between Scripture teaching and man-made church tradition. Tradition's Sacrament of Baptism accepts people into church memberhip who have never genuinely placed their faith in Christ.

Well, that's also true of churches which only accept people into membership upon their testimony about having "genuinely placed their faith in Christ."

In other words, there's no "unbridgeable gulf" between the churches on either of these points.

 

[renniks]

It's not sacramental baptism.

It's another experience that is called a 'baptism' by comparision. When Jesus said to go into the world, preach the Gospel, and baptize the new members, he was quite obviously not speaking there of what is called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I agree but that doesn't mean holy spirit baptism is a symbol for believers baptism. Just the opposite actually. It's not called baptism because it's comparing the two. They are both different forms of submersion.

 

[Albion]

I agree but that doesn't mean holy spirit baptism is a symbol for believers baptism. Just the opposite actually. It's not called baptism because it's comparing the two. They are both different forms of submersion.

That's true. HS Baptism is not a different way of referring to sacramental Baptism. Really, though, there is a limit to how many words can be used in a fanciful, figurative sense, before almost everything can be made to mean something other than what it is.

 

[Eloy Craft]

What is known now as the one Baptism began to take place when Jesus was Baptized by John. Jesus was immersed in John's pattern of life and his righteousness.
Immediately Jesus responds to the Holy Spirit and goes out into the desert for 40 days and fasts and be tempted by the devil. That was the pattern of John's life. John's righteousness was required to win the sinners struggle with temptation. A struggle Jesus would not know but we would need in the one Baptism into His life. So our Baptism into Christ begins with water continues with the Word and communion with Our Lord just as the Apostles experienced until they were empowered by the Holy Spirit to accomplish their mission.
That took 3 years or so to happen. All of these stages are sometimes mistaken for the whole thing. In Samaria Jesus Baptized with words but the Apostles completed the Baptism with water. Some had John's Baptism alone and their Baptism required immersion into Christ by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus included John's righteousness to be tempted by the devil like a sinner.

 

[Albion]

What is known now as the one Baptism began to take place when Jesus was Baptized by John. Jesus was immersed in John's pattern of life and his righteousness.

You have put your finger on the point I was trying to make. John's baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan is not described in Scripture as having been done by submerging Christ under the waters, but some churches insist that it was done that way.

And then to add to that speculation made into a doctrine they sometimes do what you did here and use a word that doesn't appear at all in that Bible passage, then treat it in a non-literal sense to produce support for their doctrine. Thus, the guess about immersion in the River Jordan's waters becomes immersion in John's pattern of life. See the red lettering above.

If we are free to do that, we can make up an endless series of unScriptural doctrines and claim that they are actually Scriptural. The famous joke about what automobile Jesus wants us to drive comes to mind. It's a Honda, of course, because we have the Bible's word on it where believers are instructed to be in or with "one ACCORD." (Acts 5:12 and many others)

 

[Eloy Craft]

You have put your finger on the point I was trying to make. John's baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan is not described in Scripture as having been done by submerging Christ under the waters, but some churches insist that it was done that way.

And then to add to that speculation made into a doctrine they sometimes do what you did here and use a word that doesn't appear at all in that Bible passage, then treat it in a non-literal sense to produce support for their doctrine. Thus, the guess about immersion in the River Jordan's waters becomes immersion in John's pattern of life. See the red lettering above.

If we are free to do that, we can make up an endless series of unScriptural doctrines and claim that they are actually Scriptural. The famous joke about what automobile Jesus wants us to drive comes to mind. It's a Honda, of course, because we have the Bible's word on it where believers are instructed to be in or with "one ACCORD." (Acts 5:12 and many others)

I think Jesus demonstrated how a Baptism works. He had to be driven into the desert by the HS. That wasn't what he ever would do Himself. He was eating and drinking John was fasting.
Isn't it too coincidental for Jesus to spend 40 days doing what John did his whole life immediately after receiving John's Baptism?. It's a doctrine because it's true.

 

[Albion]

I think Jesus demonstrated how a Baptism works. He had to be driven into the desert by the HS. That wasn't what he ever would do Himself. He was eating and drinking John was fasting.

That's not related to what we're discussing.

 

[Eloy Craft]

And then to add to that speculation made into a doctrine they sometimes do what you did here and use a word that doesn't appear at all in that Bible passage, then treat it in a non-literal sense to produce support for their doctrine. Thus, the guess about immersion in the River Jordan's waters becomes immersion in John's pattern of life. See the red lettering above

Are you saying Jesus was not Baptized or just not with water?

 

[Eloy Craft]

That's not related to what we're discussing.

Your rebuttal doesn't address the theology it nit pics the translation.