How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

[SkyWriting]

Thanks. The thing is, the passage is talking about slaves and their masters. The postmodern application would be employees and their bosses, not citizens and local government.

I agree. But taken with other passages, they all work well together regarding any actual authority of any kind.

For example, when confronted by police:
Sit down and shut up. I don't know of a singe case
where a person sat down and shut up and it cost them their life.

 

[SPF]

Dear SPF,
Yes. As I answered before.
I definitely would follow all applicable laws.

This is absurd. How do you not recognize how terribly wrong your theology is? First off, the fact that you can't point to a single early church father, or a single commentary, or a single credible theologian that has ever lived or is living that agrees with your theology should be a giant red flag to you.

But the worst thing of all is that you just said you would have no problem destroying your Bible, no longer attending Church (you probably don't anyway actually), and no longer publicly acknowledging your faith, if the government decided that it wanted to be an atheistic culture.

What's worse, is that it's obvious there is no limit to what you would do since you have some demented notion that you are to obey the secular government with no limitations.

For example, if the government you live under became a totalitarian state, with a truly atheistic leader who thought Christianity was dangerous and hindered the growth of society and declared that all citizens must:

1. Burn all religious items they possess
2. Sign a written declaration that they do not believe Christ was God or died on a cross
3. Never meet together for the sake of worship or Biblical discussion
4. Never witness
5. Agree to serve as a public agent whereby you turn in everyone who secretly as an individual or as a group breaks any of the above 4 points.

Based upon what you've said, you would do all of the above if the government went that direction. Not only would you do it, you would be under the delusion that you're actually following God by doing so? Really?

If you read the entire story, the law was enacted specifically to entrap Daniel and was immediately enforced for the purpose of getting him thrown into jail

This I find interesting, because you're actually saying here that a law CAN be disobeyed if its purpose is to entrap Christians? So there are times in which a law can be disobeyed as a Christian. How are we to determine then what laws can be obeyed and what laws can be disobeyed?

 

[SkyWriting]

This is absurd. How do you not recognize how terribly wrong your theology is?

Nope. I've been defending this positions for a couple months
and there has been no scriptural rebuttals except one that was
not well researched.

And like most all others, your rebuttal above has not one scripture passage.
24 minutes ago#82

 

[SPF]

Nope. I've been defending this positions for a couple months
and there has been no scriptural rebuttals except one that was
not well researched.

And like most all others, your rebuttal above has not one scripture passage.
24 minutes ago#82

My rebuttal above takes what you're claiming and actually plays it out. The fact that you're lacking the intellectual integrity to respond to how it plays out demonstrates a real lack of actual thought out process on your part for this utterly insane position.

So I'll ask again, and please respond, because if you're right, then the above scenario is something we should all embrace. And that just seems absurd:

If the government you live under became a totalitarian state, with a truly atheistic leader who thought Christianity was dangerous and hindered the growth of society and declared that all citizens must:

1. Burn all religious items they possess
2. Sign a written declaration that they do not believe Christ was God or died on a cross
3. Never meet together for the sake of worship or Biblical discussion
4. Never witness
5. Agree to serve as a public agent whereby you turn in everyone who secretly as an individual or as a group breaks any of the above 4 points.

Based upon what you've said, you would do all of the above if the government went that direction. Not only would you do it, you would be under the delusion that you're actually following God by doing so? Really?

Finally, again, please address the fact that you seem to think based upon the Daniel story that there IS room for Christians to disobey the law. Daniel DID disobey a law, and was punished accordingly for disobeying a law. If you're asserting that Daniel was not wrong for disobeying the law, then you are stating that there are indeed times in which Christians can disobey the law!

 

[SkyWriting]

This I find interesting, because you're actually saying here that a law CAN be disobeyed if its purpose is to entrap Christians? So there are times in which a law can be disobeyed as a Christian. How are we to determine then what laws can be obeyed and what laws can be disobeyed?

What I actually said was that the law was created just to ensnare Daniel. The story does not claim Daniel was aware of the new law. You are very persistent at proving me wrong. Scripture says we should follow all local laws at all times and that the fulfillment or actions of local government are the Fathers will for man.

In the example of shadrach, meshach, and abednego this means all non-Christians should have their arms and legs torn off. This was God's will in that case.

Daniel 3 HCSB

 

[SkyWriting]

My rebuttal above takes what you're claiming and actually plays it out. The fact that you're lacking the intellectual integrity to respond to how it plays out demonstrates a real lack of actual thought out process on your part for this utterly insane position.

So I'll ask again, and please respond, because if you're right, then the above scenario is something we should all embrace. And that just seems absurd:

If the government you live under became a totalitarian state, with a truly atheistic leader who thought Christianity was dangerous and hindered the growth of society and declared that all citizens must:

1. Burn all religious items they possess
2. Sign a written declaration that they do not believe Christ was God or died on a cross
3. Never meet together for the sake of worship or Biblical discussion
4. Never witness
5. Agree to serve as a public agent whereby you turn in everyone who secretly as an individual or as a group breaks any of the above 4 points.

Based upon what you've said, you would do all of the above if the government went that direction. Not only would you do it, you would be under the delusion that you're actually following God by doing so? Really?

Finally, again, please address the fact that you seem to think based upon the Daniel story that there IS room for Christians to disobey the law. Daniel DID disobey a law, and was punished accordingly for disobeying a law. If you're asserting that Daniel was not wrong for disobeying the law, then you are stating that there are indeed times in which Christians can disobey the law!

The Op is about Bible passages. You've not found one yet?
2 minutes ago#84
Me neither.

 

[SPF]

What I actually said was that the law was created just to ensnare Daniel. The story does not claim Daniel was aware of the new law. You are very persistent at proving me wrong.

SkyWriting, have you actually dived into the passage you're referring to in Daniel? It DOES claim that Daniel was aware of the law. It specifically states that he was aware of the law. It was an important part of the story that he knew it was part of the law. Are you just lying and hoping that we won't see that? Or did you really actually think that Daniel didn't know?

Daniel 6:10 - Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously.

Daniel absolutely knew what the law was. He explicitly disobeyed the law. Now, either you have to say that Daniel sinned by disobeying the law - which is going to be a hard case to make as God delivered him from his disobedience. Or, you have to say that there are times in which Christians can disobey the law, which fundamentally disproves your entire argument.

We could also use the example of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego from Daniel 3 who also explicitly disobeyed the laws of the land and were kept from death by God.

 

[SPF]

And honestly, given the fact that you would be comfortable burning your Bible and turning people in who were Christians to the government knowing they would be killed makes me really question if you have any understanding at all what Christianity is really about.

 

[SkyWriting]

SkyWriting, have you actually dived into the passage you're referring to in Daniel? It DOES claim that Daniel was aware of the law. It specifically states that he was aware of the law. It was an important part of the story that he knew it was part of the law. Are you just lying and hoping that we won't see that? Or did you really actually think that Daniel didn't know?

Daniel 6:10 - Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously.

Daniel absolutely knew what the law was. He explicitly disobeyed the law. Now, either you have to say that Daniel sinned by disobeying the law - which is going to be a hard case to make as God delivered him from his disobedience. Or, you have to say that there are times in which Christians can disobey the law, which fundamentally disproves your entire argument.

We could also use the example of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego from Daniel 3 who also explicitly disobeyed the laws of the land and were kept from death by God.

Ah. I missed that. A agree that Daniel was wrong. As a result of his disobedience to God's word, his detractors and their families were fed to the lions.

As a result of the misguided actions of S,M, and A:

29 Therefore I issue a decree that anyone of any people, nation, or languagear who says anything offensive against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego will be torn limb from limb and his house made a garbage dump.


So you can disobey government, but all non-Christians will be torn into pieces. Or fed to lions for your neglect of God's word. I choose not to go that direction.

 

[SkyWriting]

And honestly, given the fact that you would be comfortable burning your Bible and turning people in who were Christians to the government knowing they would be killed makes me really question if you have any understanding at all what Christianity is really about.

Right. It's got nothing to do with handling Bibles or picking out who you think are Christians.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

See? No Bibles.

 

[SkyWriting]

And honestly, given the fact that you would be comfortable burning your Bible and turning people in who were Christians to the government knowing they would be killed makes me really question if you have any understanding at all what Christianity is really about.

I'm not worried. Don't worry.

Philippians 4:6-7
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

I agree. But taken with other passages, they all work well together regarding any actual authority of any kind.

For example, when confronted by police:
Sit down and shut up. I don't know of a singe case
where a person sat down and shut up and it cost them their life.

Sometimes dying is the moral option.

 

[SkyWriting]

Sometimes dying is the moral option.

That's what I was implying about Daniel and S,M, & A.
Instead, scores of other innocent family members and every non-believer had to die for their civil disobedience. Likely they had most family members torn limb from limb as a result of civil disobedience.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

That's what I was implying about Daniel and S,M, & A.
Instead, scores of other innocent family members and every non-believer had to die for their civil disobedience.

Note: that's choosing for oneself to die, as opposed to having one's unborn baby murdered.

 

[SkyWriting]

Note: that's choosing for oneself to die, as opposed to having one's unborn baby murdered.

Both are lawful actions and so are part of the Father's plan for us.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Both are lawful actions and part of the Father's plan for us.

It is not part of the Father's plan that people have their unborn babies murdered SkyWriting.

 

[SkyWriting]

It is not part of the Father's plan that people have their unborn babies murdered SkyWriting.

Jesus said it was on the Fathers authority given to government that He was crucified. So his actions back up His words.

Did you not get what the OP is about? I am answering to that post.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Jesus said it was on the Fathers authority given to government that He was crucified. So his actions back up His words.

Did you not get what the OP is about?

Chapter and verse please.

Oh, and this thread is about how the murder of unborn babies can be biblically defended - which, of course, it can't.

 

[SkyWriting]

Chapter and verse please.

Oh, and this thread is about how the murder of unborn babies can be biblically defended - which, of course, it can't.

God supports local government over religious ideas.

Daniel 6:3-5
1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3,1
1 Timothy 2,1-3

Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Deuteronomy 16:18-20

1 Timothy 6:15-16
Proverbs 21:1
Romans 13:4

Mark 3:24
Proverbs 8:15
Ecclesiastes 8:2-5

John 19:10-11
Daniel 2:21
2 Chronicles 7:14

Exodus 18:21
Romans 8:28
1 Corinthians 14:40

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

God supports local government over religious dreamers.

Daniel 6:3-5
1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3,1
1 Timothy 2,1-3

Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Deuteronomy 16:18-20

1 Timothy 6:15-16
Proverbs 21:1
Romans 13:4

Mark 3:24
Proverbs 8:15
Ecclesiastes 8:2-5

John 19:10-11
Daniel 2:21
2 Chronicles 7:14

Exodus 18:21
Romans 8:28
1 Corinthians 14:40

And... which one of those exactly is the scripture in which, "Jesus said it was on the Fathers authority given to government that He was crucified. So his actions back up His words."