How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

[SkyWriting]

After reading a number of things you've said over the years, I wonder, if abortion was actually made illegal, would you then see it as wrong to have an abortion?

You do afterall seem to believe that the law actually determines what is right and wrong (though of course we know it doesn't).

Without the rules of local government, Jesus would not have been crucified.
Then where would we be?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

God's rule is through local government.

Which in no way means that local government can't at times screw things up and go their own way. Like, for example, in making a certain kind of murder legal.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think there is no Biblical support for the 98.5% of abortions which are committed for convenience reasons.

Abortions are legal. God support local government and does not support civil disobedience.

 

[SkyWriting]

Which in no way means that local government can't at times screw things up and go their own way. Like, for example, in making a certain kind of murder legal.

Like the crucifixion. God saved us!

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Abortions are legal. God support local government and does not support civil disobedience.

God does not necessarily support everything that local government does. Not sure where you are getting the idea that God does, nor from where you take that God is always and ever opposed to civil disobedience.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Like the crucifixion. God saved us!

God allowed the local government of Jesus' day to crucify Jesus. God was no more in favor of murder then than God is now.

 

[SkyWriting]

God allowed the local government of Jesus' day to crucify Jesus. God was no more in favor of murder then than God is now.

Jesus explained that the workings of local government - are the will of the Father. So local laws must be followed as a priority over scripture. If this were not the case, then Jesus would not have been crucified. When confronted Jesus said for his followers to put down their swords. Here Jesus is explaining that the will of the father is through local law.

51 At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?


Here it is shown that events on earth are the Fathers will:

Revelation 13:10
"If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; if anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed." Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.

Here we are told to endure what we think is wrong and not fight:

Matthew 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Here is is shown that God knows all about hardship:
Matthew 23:34-36
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:


Here it is shown that obeying local government is God's will for you:
Matthew 5:40
if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well;

 

[SkyWriting]

God allowed the local government of Jesus' day to crucify Jesus. God was no more in favor of murder then than God is now.

This says to obey local law which allow abortions:
Ecclesiastes 8:2-5
I counsel thee to keep the king's commandment, and that in regard of the oath of God

 

[SkyWriting]

God does not necessarily support everything that local government does. Not sure where you are getting the idea that God does, nor from where you take that God is always and ever opposed to civil disobedience.

It comes from scripture. Thanks.
The OP topic.

Ecclesiastes 8:2-5
I counsel thee to keep the king's commandment, and that in regard of the oath of God

Matthew 26:52
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

 

[SkyWriting]

It seems as though you would have to throw the word of God out the window to justify it. Please explain to me why I am wrong for having this point of view?

There is only one method of showing biblical support for "Progressive" or social issues. That method is God's support for civil obedience. God word supports civil obedience in all instances.

The best example is Jesus submitting to local government and being crucified.
Jesus is civil and obedient to being arrested, civil during his trial, and explains to his captors that they are doing the will of His Father and they get their authority from the father.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above."

 

[SkyWriting]

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. - Romans 13:9-10

Jesus did not mention these passages during His trial and crucifixion
but instead submitted to local authorities.

 

[God saves]

Jesus explained that the workings of local government - are the will of the Father. So local laws must be followed as a priority over scripture. If this were not the case, then Jesus would not have been crucified. When confronted Jesus said for his followers to put down their swords. Here Jesus is explaining that the will of the father is through local law.

51 At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?


Here it is shown that events on earth are the Fathers will:

Revelation 13:10
"If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; if anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed." Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.

Here we are told to endure what we think is wrong and not fight:

Matthew 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Here is is shown that God knows all about hardship:
Matthew 23:34-36
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:


Here it is shown that obeying local government is God's will for you:
Matthew 5:40
if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well;

So if the law allows murder, such as murder of Christians (e.g. due to "apostasy" purely due to their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ), do you believe that means murder should be allowed (I don't believe that at all)? I do believe we should obey all government laws that do not go against God.

There are actually many countries where abortion is illegal:
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-where-abortion-is-illegal/
These are the countries where it's still illegal to get an abortion
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...countries-where-abortion-is-basically-banned/

Doesn't the Bible tell us to open our mouths for those who are unable to speak for themselves:
Prov 31:8-9: "8Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. 9Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy."? Why wouldn't the "dumb" include unborn babies? And how does the government law in your country (respectfully, not asking you to disclose where you live or give any identifying information if you don't want to) forbid people speaking against or trying to prevent abortions?

 

[SPF]

Skywriting, if the government decided that Christianity was dangerous and declared it illegal to own a Bible, attend Church, and to publicly acknowledge ones faith - would you adhere to those laws?

 

[SkyWriting]

So if the law allows murder, such as murder of Christians (e.g. due to "apostaty" purely due to their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ), do you believe that means murder should be allowed (I don't believe that at all)? I do believe we should obey all government laws that do not go against God.

As do most people. Though they never provide a correct scripture passage to support it. Scripture says local law is the only written law to follow and that is God's will for man. Scripture states we should obey all local government laws first, regardless of biblical law in ink or stone.

Matthew 12:25
Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.

God could easily have added one more passage to the Bible:

Declarations 1:1 Obey all government laws that do not go against God.

But billions claim this is in their Bible.

 

[SPF]

Scripture says local law is the only written law to follow and that is God's will for man. Scripture states we should obey all local government laws first, regardless of biblical law in ink or stone.

And yet we have examples like Daniel. Daniel specifically and explicitly disobeyed the decree put into law which resulted in his legal punishment of being placed in a lion's den.

And unless you're going to argue that the apostles who were at various times jailed, were jailed unlawfully, they too disobeyed the civil laws.

Again I ask, if the government decided that Christianity was dangerous and declared it illegal to own a Bible, attend Church, and to publicly acknowledge ones faith - would you adhere to those laws?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

Peter here gives the attitude which God expects from slaves. The word used by Peter, "family servants,” says the masters granted to their slaves privileges which made them as family members.

Such Christian servants were to submit to their masters. They should feel a fear of doing anything which might be contrary to their masters' will, rather show care in doing their calling's work. This was to be the case no matter what their masters were like.

This latter demand Peter substantiates: For this is grace, if one bears suffering, if a person in that station, that of a slave, a servant, bears afflictions with endurance, if they take upon themself even the unjust treatment administered by the master.

We'll not let anger get the better of us under such adversity, because we're conscious that it's God who lets such trials to come upon us, and because our conscience tells us that we owe it to God, our God, to show endurance under such circumstances.

That a Christian servant will in this way give evidence of their faith Peter shows in a question which he now proposes: For what praise's it if you sin and then endure a beating?

If you do right and then endure suffering, this' grace before God.

There's no credit in enduring stripes with patience if such punishment was deserved on account oc defection, wrong-doing.

It's different, however, if a servant does right, does their work and then's obliged to suffer, receives beatings, even though they do what they know to be good before God.

To endure patiently in a case of this kind, that's pleasing to God, that can be done only by a dispensation of strength on God's part, that's a fine work.

Although these words are addressed to Christian slaves, their admonitions may be heeded by all servants everywhere; for we'll be faithful in our work and ready to endure injustice, knowing that God's pleasure rests upon us.

 

[SkyWriting]

And yet we have examples like Daniel. Daniel specifically and explicitly disobeyed the decree put into law which resulted in his legal punishment of being placed in a lion's den.

And unless you're going to argue that the apostles who were at various times jailed, were jailed unlawfully, they too disobeyed the civil laws.

Again I ask, if the government decided that Christianity was dangerous and declared it illegal to own a Bible, attend Church, and to publicly acknowledge ones faith - would you adhere to those laws?

I did answer that.

If you read the entire story, the law was enacted specifically to entrap Daniel and was immediately enforced for the purpose of getting him thrown into jail . As these examples usually go, a number of people must die, just to provide you this false "moral of the story" on how God gets his vengeance:

24 And the king commanded, and those men who had maliciously accused Daniel were brought and cast into the den of lions—they, their children, and their wives. And before they reached the bottom of the den, the lions overpowered them and broke all their bones in pieces.


So if you think the message here is disobey government so that the vile creators of the law will die along with their families and eaten by lions.....then admit that is your goal. I will try to change your mind, if possible.

Applying that to the OP then you desire people to disobey the law so your intended opponents will all be eaten by lions....and their families. I am not fond of your goal.

 

[SkyWriting]

Peter here gives the attitude which God expects from slaves. The word used by Peter, "family servants,” says the masters granted to their slaves privileges which made them as family members.

Such Christian servants were to submit to their masters. They should feel a fear of doing anything which might be contrary to their masters' will, rather show care in doing their calling's work. This was to be the case no matter what their masters were like.

This latter demand Peter substantiates: For this is grace, if one bears suffering, if a person in that station, that of a slave, a servant, bears afflictions with endurance, if they take upon themself even the unjust treatment administered by the master.

We'll not let anger get the better of us under such adversity, because we're conscious that it's God who lets such trials to come upon us, and because our conscience tells us that we owe it to God, our God, to show endurance under such circumstances.

That a Christian servant will in this way give evidence of their faith Peter shows in a question which he now proposes: For what praise's it if you sin and then endure a beating?

If you do right and then endure suffering, this' grace before God.

There's no credit in enduring stripes with patience if such punishment was deserved on account oc defection, wrong-doing.

It's different, however, if a servant does right, does their work and then's obliged to suffer, receives beatings, even though they do what they know to be good before God.

To endure patiently in a case of this kind, that's pleasing to God, that can be done only by a dispensation of strength on God's part, that's a fine work.

Although these words are addressed to Christian slaves, their admonitions may be heeded by all servants everywhere; for we'll be faithful in our work and ready to endure injustice, knowing that God's pleasure rests upon us.

A very good analysis.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

A very good analysis.

Thanks. The thing is, the passage is talking about slaves and their masters. The postmodern application would be employees and their bosses, not citizens and local government.

 

[SkyWriting]

Skywriting, if the government decided that Christianity was dangerous and declared it illegal to own a Bible, attend Church, and to publicly acknowledge ones faith - would you adhere to those laws?

Dear SPF,
Yes. As I answered before.
I definitely would follow all applicable laws.