How are we to understand this statement of Jesus?

[food4thought]

"You have heard me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father', for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

I am leading a Bible study in the Gospel of John and we will be discussing this statement probably next week. How are we to understand this verse in light of the rest of John's teaching on the Deity of Jesus?

Thanks in advance;

Mike

 

[dysert]

I would say to first look at John 10:30 and realize that Jesus is God, so they're the "same". Otoh, Jesus emptied Himself when He took on human form, which of course is less than divine (for example, as a human He was not omnipresent). Not only that, but He submitted Himself to the Father's will, putting Himself -- in authority -- as "under" the Father. But be sure and go back to John 10:30. Currently, there is absolutely no distance between the Father and the Son, but during the Incarnation there was a sort of rank among the Trinity.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

As a man Jesus brought God into mankind because He is a kinsman redeemer. accomplished thru His humanity, which is in a lesser form ( that of a slave in comparison to complete divinity) accomplished by His incarnation. John 14:12 is Him going to the Father to bring mankind into God through His death and resurrection, from where, with the inclusion of the Holy Spirit, greater works are to be accomplished. In light of this verse and John 14:28 it's the explanation of the process of bringing God to mankind and mankind being brought to God.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[food4thought]

I would say to first look at John 10:30 and realize that Jesus is God, so they're the "same". Otoh, Jesus emptied Himself when He took on human form, which of course is less than divine (for example, as a human He was not omnipresent). Not only that, but He submitted Himself to the Father's will, putting Himself -- in authority -- as "under" the Father. But be sure and go back to John 10:30. Currently, there is absolutely no distance between the Father and the Son, but during the Incarnation there was a sort of rank among the Trinity.

Thanks dysert, that is along the lines that I was thinking, and John 14 continues on the theme of John 10:30. I just want to be sure my understanding of this was solid because the rest of John 14 has strong overtones of the equality of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... and then there is that verse 28 that could easily be misinterpreted. I don't want to teach strongly on the Trinity for most of the chapter and then have a weak understanding of this verse, thus throwing doubt on what I was just teaching on.

Any further comments/thoughts are welcome... I want to nail the explanation of this verse.

 

[food4thought]

Maybe look at Hebrews 1, Hebrews 2:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:24, and
1 Corinthians 15:28

As a man Jesus brought God into mankind because He is a kinsman redeemer. accomplished thru His humanity, which is in a lesser form ( that of a slave in comparison to complete divinity) accomplished by His incarnation. John 14:12 is Him going to the Father to bring mankind into God through His death and resurrection, from where, with the inclusion of the Holy Spirit, greater works are to be accomplished. In light of this verse and John 14:28 it's the explanation of the process of bringing God to mankind and mankind being brought to God.

Thank you both for the replies. Cassia, can you point me to some Scriptures that speak of the Kinsman redeemer? I agree with your assessment, but want to back up everything that I say on this verse with Scripture. vinsight4u, thanks for the Scripture passages that speak of Christ's exhaltation.

Does anyone think it would be appropriate to include reference to His descent into humanity (Philippians 2:5-8)?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Thank you both for the replies. Cassia, can you point me to some Scriptures that speak of the Kinsman redeemer? I agree with your assessment, but want to back up everything that I say on this verse with Scripture. vinsight4u, thanks for the Scripture passages that speak of Christ's exhaltation.

Does anyone think it would be appropriate to include reference to His descent into humanity (Philippians 2:5-8)?

You would have to go to the scripture of Boaz and Ruth for kinsman redeemer. They are the grandparents of King David. That gets deep when you consider the implications of allowance to the temple for both David and Jesus.

 

[Greg J.]

It may be fruitful to re-examine what you believe about the Trinity, and maybe also what the relationship between (good) fathers and (good) sons was like in that culture. In Scripture we see sons (sometimes servants, too) speaking and the hearers treating it like it was the father who had spoken. I would say that it is the case that Jesus continues to be "lesser" than the Father even in heaven, while at the same time being equal. If that doesn't make sense, then all it means is that you've discovered another way to get at the apparent conflict of the Trinity being One. It has been and always will be the case that God, the Father created the universe through God, the Son. It is incorrect to say the Son created the universe through the Father, for example, just because we read that they are One.

Possibly the most valuable thing to do in the study is not try to resolve the question of how can the Father be greater when they are both One, but to examine their Oneness and their three-ness separately—in other words, the way you would approach a study of the Trinity being One.

 

[Hoghead1]

It may be fruitful to re-examine what you believe about the Trinity, and maybe also what the relationship between (good) fathers and (good) sons was like in that culture. In Scripture we see sons (sometimes servants, too) speaking and the hearers treating it like it was the father who had spoken. I would say that it is the case that Jesus continues to be "lesser" than the Father even in heaven, while at the same time being equal. If that doesn't make sense, then all it means is that you've discovered another way to get at the apparent conflict of the Trinity being One. It has been and always will be the case that God, the Father created the universe through God, the Son. It is incorrect to say the Son created the universe through the Father, for example, just because we read that they are One.

Possibly the most valuable thing to do in the study is not try to resolve the question of how can the Father be greater when they are both One, but to examine their Oneness and their three-ness separately—in other words, the way you would approach a study of the Trinity being One.

It might also be fruitful for you to reexamine your thinking on the Trinity. Too often, Trinitarian models collapse into subrodinationism, where the Father is the Boss of bosses, God, strictly speaking, with th Son and Spirit as lesser beings, lieutenants set out to do his bidding. Also, any teaching suggesting three personalities or subjectivities within the Godhead automatically collapses into tritheism.

 

[Hoghead1]

Thanks dysert, that is along the lines that I was thinking, and John 14 continues on the theme of John 10:30. I just want to be sure my understanding of this was solid because the rest of John 14 has strong overtones of the equality of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... and then there is that verse 28 that could easily be misinterpreted. I don't want to teach strongly on the Trinity for most of the chapter and then have a weak understanding of this verse, thus throwing doubt on what I was just teaching on.

Any further comments/thoughts are welcome... I want to nail the explanation of this verse.

Yes, but if you are into a kind of subrodinationism, then you really compromise the Trinity. The Father is the Boss of bosses, God, strictly speaking, whereas the Son and Spirit appear as lesser lieutenants sent to do his bidding.

 

[Greg J.]

It may be fruitful to re-examine what you believe about the Trinity,

I should have stated: because it may come up in your Bible study.

Examining what the nature of the word "greater" is might be prudent, as well, since it is the core word in the meaning of what you bolded in John 14:28. He consistently indicated the Father was greater than he in the gospels, but what did he mean? In some cases it may have meant "deserved greater honor," in others "had greater majesty." Did it mean "had more inherent worth," or perhaps "has done more astonishing things?" Also, what do you and those in the Bible study understand "greater" to mean? It didn't mean the Father had a greater nature than Jesus, for example. As I said, studying this verse fragment could turn into a Trinity study.

However, avoiding a Trinity study is pretty easy. The point of the whole passage is that Jesus is trying to encourage his disciples before he leaves them. All he is saying by that bolded fragment is that He is going to a better place (God's side in heaven) so the disciples, if they care about Jesus, should be happy.

 

[singpeace]

"You have heard me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father', for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

I am leading a Bible study in the Gospel of John and we will be discussing this statement probably next week. How are we to understand this verse in light of the rest of John's teaching on the Deity of Jesus?

Thanks in advance;

Mike

I think the most controversial part of this Scripture is the last thing Jesus says, "For my Father is greater than I." Sometimes it is better to just think logically and not try to find a hidden spiritual meaning. The Father is not greater in essence as Jesus had many times before asserted the contrary; but greater,

1. Either as to the structure of the Holy trinity; because the Father is He from whom the Son came.
Or:

2. As Mediator sent from the Father, so He is greater than I.
Or:

3. In regard to Jesus' current state at the time, while He was there in the form of a servant; and in a state of lowliness:

The third option seems to be the best interpretation. Consider the words before this verse's last line, "ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father". He seems to indicate that the true reason of that joy was because Christ in his glorious state of exaltation would be much more happy than he had been in his state of humiliation, while he was exposed to the scoffs, reproaches, and injuries of men, the temptations of Satan.

 

[Hoghead1]

"You have heard me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father', for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

I am leading a Bible study in the Gospel of John and we will be discussing this statement probably next week. How are we to understand this verse in light of the rest of John's teaching on the Deity of Jesus?

Thanks in advance;

Mike

It is problematic. If Christ is taken to be less than the Father in the literal sense of "less," then we re into a subrodinationism in teh trinity and that means the Father is the Boss of bosses, strictly speaking, Gods, and then Jesus is a lesser lieutenant. That,, in turn, makes it awkward to be Trinitarian. As I have said before, the Bible implies a Trinity, but does not fully work it out.

 

[Hoghead1]

I should have stated: because it may come up in your Bible study.

Examining what the nature of the word "greater" is might be prudent, as well, since it is the core word in the meaning of what you bolded in John 14:28. He consistently indicated the Father was greater than he in the gospels, but what did he mean? In some cases it may have meant "deserved greater honor," in others "had greater majesty." Did it mean "had more inherent worth," or perhaps "has done more astonishing things?" Also, what do you and those in the Bible study understand "greater" to mean? It didn't mean the Father had a greater nature than Jesus, for example. As I said, studying this verse fragment could turn into a Trinity study.

However, avoiding a Trinity study is pretty easy. The point of the whole passage is that Jesus is trying to encourage his disciples before he leaves them. All he is saying by that bolded fragment is that He is going to a better place (God's side in heaven) so the disciples, if they care about Jesus, should be happy.

Well, the Trinity is no easy doctrine and so always requires careful study. If you fall into a subrodinationism, then you lose the Trinity, making the Son and Spirit lesser beings, lieutenants under orders of the Father, who alone is the Boss of bosses, God, strictly speaking.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

"You have heard me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father', for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

I am leading a Bible study in the Gospel of John and we will be discussing this statement probably next week. How are we to understand this verse in light of the rest of John's teaching on the Deity of Jesus?

Thanks in advance;

Mike

In the eyes of God, who is greater is based on the service provided .. the psalm speaks of Jesus being made a little lower than the angels and then exalted above all . when Jesus said "the father is greater than I" . it was in terms of the current services being provided.

not hierarchy related.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"You have heard me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father', for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

I am leading a Bible study in the Gospel of John and we will be discussing this statement probably next week. How are we to understand this verse in light of the rest of John's teaching on the Deity of Jesus?

Thanks in advance;

Mike

"but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." (Philippians 2:7)

 

[Abraxos]

God is one in being and 3 in person.

A being is that quality or that essence what makes you what you are, a person is that quality, or that essence that makes you, whom you are.

For example, what I am is a human being, and who I am is Abraxos.

The being = I am a human being

The person = I am Abraxos

We are human beings and we share that amongst us, but none of you share essentially the type of person that I am. We are all different persons. So the characteristic of a being is very different of a person. I am one being with one person, God is one being with three persons - Father, Son, and Spirit. Is there anything like that on this earth? No. But with God all things are possible. Not only that but there is a revelation in the trinity - we see the deeper truths of God's nature, of what does it mean to be the father?, what does it mean to be the son?, what does it mean to be the Spirit? These are different roles in the trinity and often times people see the terms Son and impute inferiority to the Son. In a sense this is true and there are scriptures that show this, "For my father is greater than I."

For example, my father is the CEO of his company and I am under him, he's at the top. In that sense he is greater than I am, but he is a human being just as I am and we are of the same blood. So my father's being is essentially equal to mine. He's a human being and I am a human being, we are equal in that sense; but his role is greater than mine, and I am inferior in that sense.

So when Jesus says "the father is greater than I", the being is equal but the role is different. And this is how the trinity all comes into focus when we read the Bible.

Want me to continue?

 

[Hoghead1]

God is one in being and 3 in person.

A being is that quality or that essence what makes you what you are, a person is that quality, or that essence that makes you, whom you are.

For example, what I am is a human being, and who I am is Abraxos.

The being = I am a human being

The person = I am Abraxos

We are human beings and we share that amongst us, but none of you share essentially the type of person that I am. We are all different persons. So the characteristic of a being is very different of a person. I am one being with one person, God is one being with three persons - Father, Son, and Spirit. Is there anything like that on this earth? No. But with God all things are possible. Not only that but there is a revelation in the trinity - we see the deeper truths of God's nature, of what does it mean to be the father?, what does it mean to be the son?, what does it mean to be the Spirit? These are different roles in the trinity and often times people see the terms Son and impute inferiority to the Son. In a sense this is true and there are scriptures that show this, "For my father is greater than I."

For example, my father is the CEO of his company and I am under him, he's at the top. In that sense he is greater than I am, but he is a human being just as I am and we are of the same blood. So my father's being is essentially equal to mine. He's a human being and I am a human being, we are equal in that sense; but his role is greater than mine, and I am inferior in that sense.

So when Jesus says "the father is greater than I", the being is equal but the role is different. And this is how the trinity all comes into focus when we read the Bible.

Want me to continue?

The problem I am having with your post is this: If you are saying there are three subjectivities within the Godhead, then you are professing tritheism. No doubt about that. Also, if you are seeing members of teh trinity as subordinate to one another, then what you are really claiming is that the Father is the Boss of bosses, God, strictly speaking, with the Son and Spirit as lesser lieutenants. That also subverts the idea of a Trinity.

 

[Abraxos]

The problem I am having with your post is this: If you are saying there are three subjectivities within the Godhead, then you are professing tritheism. No doubt about that. Also, if you are seeing members of teh trinity as subordinate to one another, then what you are really claiming is that the Father is the Boss of bosses, God, strictly speaking, with the Son and Spirit as lesser lieutenants. That also subverts the idea of a Trinity.

"You have heard me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father', for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

Essentially from what Jesus said, the father in the Godhead is the boss and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the lesser; in that sense, yes. What's the problem?

What's a tritheism?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Possibly the most valuable thing to do in the study is not try to resolve the question of how can the Father be greater when they are both One, but to examine their Oneness and their three-ness separately—in other words, the way you would approach a study of the Trinity being One.

Good point. The tired rational that one means equal should take a lesson from marriage, where scripture says that a couple become one, but the man is above the woman. Also learn from scripture's description of the hierarchy of the Church. We are one body of different parts of different gifts and glory, and Christ is the head. By their same logic, we are one with Christ, we are therefore equal to Christ, NOT.