How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Loudmouth]

But it does not change Spiritual Reality they have yet to apprehend.

.

Does it change the Leprechaun Reality, or the Santa Claus Reality? Do you still deny their existence in open rebellion against Leprechauns and Santa Claus?

 

[Heissonear]

Actually people already have evidence of a miracle all around them but they deny the existence of God. As the bible says everyone has a witness of Gods creation in the things we see all around us and it is written in our hearts. When we look at the moon and the stars and the universe. When we see a flower and a bumble bee and a new born baby. These are all miracles of creation and life which we know of that were made by God and we can see that they had to have been made by God.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
Yet God has made everything beautiful for its own time. He has planted eternity in the human heart, but even so, people cannot see the whole scope of God's work from beginning to end.

As the Heavens show God can do the Miraculous.

And He is Wondrous, from everlasting to everlasting.

.

 

[Heissonear]

Does it change the Leprechaun Reality, or the Santa Claus Reality? Do you still deny their existence in open rebellion against Leprechauns and Santa Claus?

.

You state these things because your search for Him came up with zero.

You think others who seek Him do not find Him.

Each person is triune in makeup: being body, soul (mind, will, and emotions), and spirit. Many have sought Him being a soulish person, and were dominated by intellect and possibly emotions in their search. Our spirit is to be THE dominate part, in balance with our soul, where we search for Him with a whole heart - heart being the intricate combination of soul AND spirit, with the spirit again being dominate in the life experience of seeking and searching for Him.

Seeking Him the wrong way have created a host of religious delusions, rather than Him.

"You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart" Jeremiah 29:13

How else are you going to be born again by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8), or be led by His Spirit (Romans 8:14).

.

 

[stevevw]

As the Heavens show God can do the Miraculous.

And He is Wondrous, from everlasting to everlasting.

.

Well I would say creating a universe out of nothing or life from nothing is a pretty big feat in itself. When I think of the universe and its infinity with celestial bodies all floating in harmony like a finely tuned watch with just the right ingredients for life I am amazed at Gods work.

 

[PsychoSarah]

.

Some are more temperamental and irritable than others. They are hard to please, in many things, when around them.

But it does not change Spiritual Reality they have yet to apprehend.

.

Most people don't see a freaking limb grow back in front of their eyes. And until you provide real evidence, it won't matter even if you did, no one is going to believe you. So either get over your superiority complex and find a new argument for your faith, or present some real evidence besides here-say.

 

[Kylie]

.
Such "vantage point" is a position Naturalists have placed themselves in, an imaginary "vantage point". It holds no water nor value. It is a hypothetical point.

You have a problem looking at miracles from particular religions from the viewpoint of the religion in question?

Fine. Then in the interests of fairness, we won't look at miracles from the viewpoint of ANY religion, including Christianity. And hence I declare all mircles nothing more than the flawed understanding of nature, requiring no supernatural explanation whatsoever.

Thanks for making it easy.

Oh, did you want to take the unfair position of looking at everything from a Christian point of view while ignoring all other viewpoints? Oh, naughty naughty.

 

[Kylie]

Thats easy if we are using sheep and wolves as the example that the Good Shepard is our example. The example of Jesus is our guide. His teachings , his words, his parables about how we can receive the kingdom of God and what we have to do. The sermon on the mount. If you read all these and see how Jesus says we have to be that is what we should go by.

If someone is saying he is from God and believes in Jesus and he isn't showing the fruits of the spirit of God then he is a false prophet. The bible says that many will say they know Jesus but Jesus will not know them. Someone may give to the poor and come across all holy. But they maybe doing this to edify themselves and not God. If they are putting money first even if they give some away and putting the things of this world first and not God then they are not truly for God. In the end those with more knowledge and responsibility will have a greater role. A lot of the church that keeps all their wealth in treasures to be admired while they could use that to help those who are dying and the poor will be judged as false prophets. If they know this and turn their back on the poor then they are turning their back on Jesus. They are just conforming to this world and justifying that its all OK. They are watering down the word of God and creating a plastic Jesus. You have to put God first before all else. Yes this may discount a lot of people but that is exactly what the bible says. There are many verses in the bible that tell us exactly how we should be.

So if someone today says they are a messenger from God, then they are not true and should be ignored. But when a guy 2000 years ago did it, you're okay with it?

Matthew 7:22-23
A Tree and its Fruit
…21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
1 John 4:20
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
Matthew 6:1
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
James 2:14-26
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Luke 16:15
And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
James 1:22-25
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
Matthew 6:5
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
James 3:17
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
1 John 3:16-17
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?
What Does the Bible Say About Hypocrisy?

Yeah, quote to me from a book I don't believe is true all you want. It's about as effective as me quoting Harry Potter to you to prove that wizards are real...

 

[Kylie]

It means we give Satan credit for writing the Hindu creation account(s).

How do you know it wasn't the other way around? Oh yeah, you just decided arbitrarily, didn't you?

 

[stevevw]

So if someone today says they are a messenger from God, then they are not true and should be ignored. But when a guy 2000 years ago did it, you're okay with it?

Well that is a silly thing to compare with. For one the guy 2000 years ago changed the world and had millions believe and follow him. So he must have done something right. As they say you can fool some of the people some of the times. He has no fault in Him and he has no sin. He sets the perfect example and was crucified an innocent man to save us.

If someone says they are a messenger from God nowadays then you have something to go by, Jesus. If they are not showing this then they will be exposed and wont last. They wont be believed for very long. They will not be as perfect as Jesus but they should be just about showing a lot of the signs of Jesus. In fact any christian should be the same. Its as simple as that. So just because they say they are a messenger from God, like anything you have to check and see, You dont dismiss them right off and you dont believe them right off. You see if they measure up. Thats exactly the same with anyone making any claims.

Yeah, quote to me from a book I don't believe is true all you want. It's about as effective as me quoting Harry Potter to you to prove that wizards are real...

Thats ok but at least you can see from the very book that makes the claims they have some criteria for what a christian should be. So you can use the false book to see if the false Christians are following their false beliefs still. But the you did say that you were wanting to tell who was a true christian and who wasn't. So why ask that if you dont believe it in the first place.

 

[Kylie]

Well that is a silly thing to compare with. For one the guy 2000 years ago changed the world and had millions believe and follow him. So he must have done something right. As they say you can fool some of the people some of the times. He has no fault in Him and he has no sin. He sets the perfect example and was crucified an innocent man to save us.

So the story goes, but how do you actually know?

If someone says they are a messenger from God nowadays then you have something to go by, Jesus. If they are not showing this then they will be exposed and wont last. They wont be believed for very long. They will not be as perfect as Jesus but they should be just about showing a lot of the signs of Jesus. In fact any christian should be the same. Its as simple as that. So just because they say they are a messenger from God, like anything you have to check and see, You dont dismiss them right off and you dont believe them right off. You see if they measure up. Thats exactly the same with anyone making any claims.

So if Jesus actually returned like he said he would, you wouldn't believe him?

Thats ok but at least you can see from the very book that makes the claims they have some criteria for what a christian should be. So you can use the false book to see if the false Christians are following their false beliefs still. But the you did say that you were wanting to tell who was a true christian and who wasn't. So why ask that if you dont believe it in the first place.

I'm sorry, but this is still using a book to prove itself. it's circular reasoning at its worst.

 

[Armoured]

Well that is a silly thing to compare with. For one the guy 2000 years ago changed the world and had millions believe and follow him. So he must have done something right.

Can't this argument work for pretty much all the major religions and spiritual philosophies though?

 

[stevevw]

So the story goes, but how do you actually know?

Well I guess we cant. But then you would say for a guy that wasn't true and didn't do much he sure fooled the world. Lets give him some credit for that. It makes Orson Wells look like an ameture.
Jesus has changed the world and affected our history. So He has achieved something.

So if Jesus actually returned like he said he would, you wouldn't believe him?

Of course. I believe Him now and I havnt seen Him. Like he said to doubting Thomas greater are those who believe and havnt seen. When Jesus returns we will know it dont you worry. The bible says He will come in the clouds and all will see Him.
Revelation 1:7, NIV. "Look, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him."

But He also says that before this there will be false prophets.
24:23-26, NIV. "At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There He is!' do not believe it. For false Christ's and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, 'There He is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here He is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it."

I'm sorry, but this is still using a book to prove itself. it's circular reasoning at its worst.

Well what else can we do. We are talking about it and you are asking questions about Jesus. How else am I going to tell you except for the book about Jesus. Apart from the supernatural we can use it to know that there was a man named Jesus who walked the earth around 2000 years ago. He claimed to be the son of God and he was sentenced to be crucified by Pontius Pilot as an innocent man. At least this much we can say, it is up the the individual as to whether they believe the Miracles and rising from the dead. That part will take the faith and that is exactly what Jesus says we need to be saved.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Well that is a silly thing to compare with. For one the guy 2000 years ago changed the world and had millions believe and follow him....

You do know there is no evidence that Jesus actually existed, outside of one work of fiction, right?

There is more evidence that Spiderman existed.

 

[Armoured]

You do know there is no evidence that Jesus actually existed, outside of one work of fiction, right?

There is more evidence that Spiderman existed.

Jesus is referenced by contemporary historians. Josephus, most notably.

 

[stevevw]

You do know there is no evidence that Jesus actually existed, outside of one work of fiction, right?

There is more evidence that Spiderman existed.

Ah theres plenty of evidence. All the best scholars and historians acknowledge that there was a man named Jesus who existed. Even wikipedia says it.

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically,
Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Others like Josephus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Lucian , Tallus, Julius Africanus, Pliny The Younger, Cornelius Tacitus and Papias all mention or reference Jesus or his Brother James.

Look up any historical writings on Pontius Pilot and it will say his most famous for being the one who sentenced Jesus. In fact new evidence has come forth regarding Pilot. They dont need to have any axe to grind. They mention Jesus like they mention Pilot. In fact there is more references to Jesus than Pilot throughout history.
Uncovered Egyptian Text: Jesus Had Last Supper with Pontius Pilate | I Love Chile News
Pontius Pilate Coins: Introduction

Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death.1

Read more: Rediscovering the Historical Jesus: The Evidence for Jesus | Reasonable Faith
​

Even the bible itself which mentions Jesus hundreds of times has been proven historically correct with the names, places and the things that existed in those times. Jesus is woven through the tapestry of that text and is so intertwined it would take many to collaborate intricate false hoods all matching from different authors at different times and in different places to line up so well. There is just to much evidence to say that there wasn't a man named Jesus who walked this earth. Even the Koran mentions Jesus and the Jewish writings such as the Talmud do as well and they had no reason to be Jesus friendly as they didn't believe he was the promised messiah. But they mention as early as 70AD Jesus was executed for practicing sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.

 

[Paulos23]

Ah theres plenty of evidence. All the best scholars and historians acknowledge that there was a man named Jesus who existed. Even wikipedia says it.

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically,
Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Others like Josephus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Lucian , Tallus, Julius Africanus, Pliny The Younger, Cornelius Tacitus and Papias all mention or reference Jesus or his Brother James.

Look up any historical writings on Pontius Pilot and it will say his most famous for being the one who sentenced Jesus. In fact new evidence has come forth regarding Pilot. They dont need to have any axe to grind. They mention Jesus like they mention Pilot. In fact there is more references to Jesus than Pilot throughout history.
Uncovered Egyptian Text: Jesus Had Last Supper with Pontius Pilate | I Love Chile News
Pontius Pilate Coins: Introduction

Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death.1

Read more: Rediscovering the Historical Jesus: The Evidence for Jesus | Reasonable Faith​

Even the bible itself which mentions Jesus hundreds of times has been proven historically correct with the names, places and the things that existed in those times. Jesus is woven through the tapestry of that text and is so intertwined it would take many to collaborate intricate false hoods all matching from different authors at different times and in different places to line up so well. There is just to much evidence to say that there wasn't a man named Jesus who walked this earth. Even the Koran mentions Jesus and the Jewish writings do as well and they had no reason to be Jesus friendly as they didnt believe he was the promised messiah.

Even if Jesus does exist (and I agree the evidence is strong that someone named Jesus existed) and the places exist, does that mean everything in the Bible is true? It does not. You still need to show that Jesus is divine, that he performed miracles.

In the end it is still a book of stories that have been collected, some modified, some added. I would say that it is likely Jesus preached in that time in those places. But if you read the Bible, and do some research, I think you will find the historical Jesus is a very different Jesus than the one worshipped or followed today.

 

[Heissonear]

Even if Jesus does exist (and I agree the evidence is strong that someone named Jesus existed) and the places exist, does that mean everything in the Bible is true? It does not. You still need to show that Jesus is divine, that he performed miracles.

In the end it is still a book of stories that have been collected, some modified, some added. I would say that it is likely Jesus preached in that time in those places. But if you read the Bible, and do some research, I think you will find the historical Jesus is a very different Jesus than the one worshipped or followed today.

.

What does Acts 1:5 say? John the Baptist baptized with water but Jesus after His ascension will Baptize by the Holy Spirit.

In the Gospel of John Jesus said to enter the Kingdom must be Born Again, Born Again by the work of the Holy Spirit.

You do not understand nor know firsthand about either, do you?

What the Holy Spirit says about the Bible you do not know. You lack His Witness. You lack what He reveals and teaches, even in our day and age.

.

 

[Paulos23]

.

What does Acts 1:5 say? John the Baptist baptized with water but Jesus after His ascension will Baptize by the Holy Spirit.

In the Gospel of John Jesus said to enter the Kingdom must be Born Again, Born Again by the work of the Holy Spirit.

You do not understand nor know firsthand about either, do you?

What the Holy Spirit says about the Bible you do not know. You lack His Witness. You lack what He reveals and teaches, even in our day and age.

.

My point is, even if the places existed and Jesus was at those places, without more colaberating sources it is doubtful that he did anything divine. Scollars have looked at the scriptures and it is clear to them these came from an oral tradition. And oral traditions do pass on information about events, but they also get changed to play to the crowd.

So no, I don't have firsthand knowage. But neither do you. Nor does the Bible.

 

[Kylie]

Well I guess we cant. But then you would say for a guy that wasn't true and didn't do much he sure fooled the world. Lets give him some credit for that. It makes Orson Wells look like an ameture.
Jesus has changed the world and affected our history. So He has achieved something.

One could say very much the same things about Muhammad and Islam...

Of course. I believe Him now and I havnt seen Him. Like he said to doubting Thomas greater are those who believe and havnt seen. When Jesus returns we will know it dont you worry. The bible says He will come in the clouds and all will see Him.
Revelation 1:7, NIV. "Look, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him."

But He also says that before this there will be false prophets.
24:23-26, NIV. "At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There He is!' do not believe it. For false Christ's and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, 'There He is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here He is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it."

So, let's say someone comes up to you and claims he is Jesus, returned to Earth. How would you determine if he is the real deal or one of these false prophets?

Well what else can we do. We are talking about it and you are asking questions about Jesus. How else am I going to tell you except for the book about Jesus. Apart from the supernatural we can use it to know that there was a man named Jesus who walked the earth around 2000 years ago. He claimed to be the son of God and he was sentenced to be crucified by Pontius Pilot as an innocent man. At least this much we can say, it is up the the individual as to whether they believe the Miracles and rising from the dead. That part will take the faith and that is exactly what Jesus says we need to be saved.

So the Bible is the only source you have about Jesus?

 

[PsychoSarah]

.

What does Acts 1:5 say? John the Baptist baptized with water but Jesus after His ascension will Baptize by the Holy Spirit.

In the Gospel of John Jesus said to enter the Kingdom must be Born Again, Born Again by the work of the Holy Spirit.

You do not understand nor know firsthand about either, do you?

What the Holy Spirit says about the Bible you do not know. You lack His Witness. You lack what He reveals and teaches, even in our day and age.

.

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

So which one is right? Because the bible is oh so reliable, it should be clear which one of these verses (which are complete contradictions of each other) is the right one and which on must be the work of the devil or some other such thing.