How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Neogaia777]

How do you know that the accounts attributed to Matthew and John were actually written by them?

I read it in a magazine article somewhere, and no not a christian magazine or publication either, (U.S. news, I think it was) that said that due to the determined time and date written they were most likely written by them.

 

[Kylie]

I read it in a magazine article somewhere, and no not a christian magazine or publication either, (U.S. news, I think it was) that said that due to the determined time and date written they were most likely written by them.

Given that we don't actually have the originals, and given that all the evidence that we have suggests that they were first written about 50-70 years after the events they describe, I don't think that this magazine is a proper source of information.

 

[AV1611VET]

There simply isn't any contempory historical records of Jesus.

Why would there be?

With the Romans investing a good chunk of their assets to squelch Christianity before it ever got started, I would imagine it would be the death penalty for anyone having such records in their possession.

In addition, so effective was Saul of Tarsus, that it would be suicide to have anything lying around.

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

 

[Sayre]

Why would there be?

With the Romans investing a good chunk of their assets to squelch Christianity before it ever got started, I would imagine it would be the death penalty for anyone having such records in their possession.

In addition, so effective was Saul of Tarsus, that it would be suicide to have anything lying around.

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Isn't it a rather strange thing for God to reveal Himself in such a way (through Christ) in an environment where the impact would be minimal? Why do that?

 

[AV1611VET]

Isn't it a rather strange thing for God to reveal Himself in such a way (through Christ) in an environment where the impact would be minimal? Why do that?

The impact wasn't minimal?

God's timing was perfect.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Three things made the time ripe:

1. Jewish sacerdotalism instilled the sense of sacrifice.
2. The Greek languange insured the widest spread of information.
3. Roman roads made access to all points in the Old World available.

 

[lesliedellow]

There simply isn't any contempory historical records of Jesus.

In Jewish Antiquities 18.63-64 Josephus gives a short summary statement on Jesus. Scholars have debated the historical merits of this passage, some (few, now) maintaining that the whole is authentic, others (another minority), that the whole is a Christian interpolation, that is, a passage written into the manuscript by a later Christian scribe. Most scholars currently incline to see the passage as basically authentic, with a few later insertions by a Christian scribe. The passage rendered below follows the editorial judgments and English translation of John Meier.

'At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians , named after him, has not died out'." (Paula Fredriksen)

No, Paula Fredriksen is not a Christian, but she is a New Testament scholar.

 

[bhsmte]

Isn't it a rather strange thing for God to reveal Himself in such a way (through Christ) in an environment where the impact would be minimal? Why do that?

Just one of the many things difficult to reconcile with the Christian story.

God sends someone, that will save all mankind (if people believe in him - Jesus), but then only exposes him to a remote part of the world. And, I have heard many reasons to explain this away, but I have yet to hear one that is anything more than psychological gymnastics at work.

 

[lesliedellow]

Isn't it a rather strange thing for God to reveal Himself in such a way (through Christ) in an environment where the impact would be minimal? Why do that?

I wouldn't exactly say that the impact has been minimal, would you? It would be difficult to think of anybody who has had a greater influence upon the last 2,000 years of world history.

 

[bhsmte]

I wouldn't exactly say that the impact has been minimal, would you? It would be difficult to think of anybody who has had a greater influence upon the course of world history.

Would you admit that the majority of the population had limited or no exposure to Jesus? Would you admit that this is one of the primary reasons people in certain parts of the world practice religions other than Christianity?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Why would there be?

With the Romans investing a good chunk of their assets to squelch Christianity before it ever got started, I would imagine it would be the death penalty for anyone having such records in their possession.

Your imagination is duly noted.

In addition, so effective was Saul of Tarsus, that it would be suicide to have anything lying around.

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

One must wonder if Saul's zeal comes from his Roman citizenship, His Jewish sensibilities, or something deeper...

 

[HitchSlap]

Why would there be?

With the Romans investing a good chunk of their assets to squelch Christianity before it ever got started, I would imagine it would be the death penalty for anyone having such records in their possession.

In addition, so effective was Saul of Tarsus, that it would be suicide to have anything lying around.

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

There's no evidence for this assertion either. Christianity wasn't even a blip on the Roman empire radar. They were mostly concerned with keeping the Jews under their thumb, and didn't have time for upstart "prophets" and the like and it seems they were a dime a dozen popping up everywhere. There is zero extrabiblical sources mentioning Jesus or Paul, although it's generally accepted Paul was a real individual. At any rate, you'd think there be at least some extrabiblical confirmation of a man who supposedly changed the world, yet nary a scant. Makes you go hmmmm....

 

[AV1611VET]

There is zero extrabiblical sources mentioning Jesus or Paul, although it's generally accepted Paul was a real individual. At any rate, you'd think there be at least some extrabiblical confirmation of a man who supposedly changed the world, yet nary a scant. Makes you go hmmmm....

There are extrabiblical sources mentioning Jesus or Paul; and I have a feeling you know that.

But for the record, let's say there weren't.

Would that surprise you?

 

[Heissonear]

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Trouble with apprehension?

When God displays His Power from on High, and a young child's limb extends in length and becomes whole and normal in a few seconds time, the Power from on High is then over, right? What created and caused the miracle is over. At that point in time would it be the beginning or the end of facts and evidence? Is it Spiritual or physical facts and evidence that is to be sought? This is where many posters have showed their ignorance and worldly value system, what they have and still walk by in value of substances.

So far your posts show you and others do not get it.

The "taste", the "apprehension", the "substance" that remains after the miracle is on the hearts of those who He allowed to firsthand "witness Him" and "witness His Power". To learn about the "miracle" requires the substance to be presented from the hearts of those witnesses. Again, it's not AFTER the arm is grown and whole, the residual physical evidence, but the evidence is all that had and did happen to the arm; the Intelligence and Power manifested from on High, the display of a dimension Above and beyond anything natural.

Again, what do you seek? What facts do you seek? Worldly or Spiritual? In times past, by following the course and ways of those who are worldly, it's been the "residual physical" OVER the Spiritual Substance in Heart.

What will remove the unbelief in your hearts? Examining what residual "physical evidence" remains? You think that is what God intends to "leave behind" for you to be converted? He knows it is the manifestation of Power you have missed. You are still not apprehending Spiritually. Rather you are use to looking for the wrong evidence and facts. God does not leave clear, obvious, and magnitudes of worldly facts for turning people to Him. What would you be turning to? Worldly facts? Again, posts requesting proof are from Spiritually Barren individuals. Worldly facts is their methodology to walk and talk by. The Spiritual Realm Dynamics they are void of. What would change? Zero. Read Matthew 16:13-17, for this within the Scriptures, the physical realm witnesses or the Spiritual Realm witnesses, the later being what the Church (believers) are built on.

Do you now happen to realize how you have trashed facts, calling his witnesses with substance from Him in their heart liars. What was trashed? What do they have? Who put it there? Did they put it there?

What are you unfamiliar of has incalculable more weight and value than your worldly methodology evidence? Again, you need to wake up from Spiritual ignorance, and living in Spiritual Poverty and Barrenness.

When God choses to work miracles again, who will He come to? To those who trash Spiritual Apprehension and seek tangible physical facts as sufficient proof, or those who seek Who He is, and the substance of What He does? Is it not worldly minded people who continue in unbelief after hearing of miracles? You think they just need physical facts?

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In relation to Him on High and His miracles those who are worldly minded seek tangible evidence in the physical. They think they can discern the Spiritual through the natural. The evidence please crowd of atheists on this forum continue down this dark methodology path. What they start with they finish with, Spiritual Barrenness and unbelief.

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[Heissonear]

There's no evidence for this assertion either. Christianity wasn't even a blip on the Roman empire radar. They were mostly concerned with keeping the Jews under their thumb, and didn't have time for upstart "prophets" and the like and it seems they were a dime a dozen popping up everywhere. There is zero extrabiblical sources mentioning Jesus or Paul, although it's generally accepted Paul was a real individual. At any rate, you'd think there be at least some extrabiblical confirmation of a man who supposedly changed the world, yet nary a scant. Makes you go hmmmm....

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Your words are mere words. You present confusion and error.

One miracle from Jesus overturns your "no god - no spiritual world".

I have witnessed Him, His Spirit, and attesting miracles. Miracles that cannot be explained by the natural world.

You are ignorant of the Spiritual Dynamics that are around us. All you can reply is denial and unbelief. You cannot overturn those who have witnessed miracles. There is no worldly evidence that you could present that could overturned what they have witnessed on earth.

God's Kingdom consists of Power. Miracles attest to this, not men's mere words.
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[HitchSlap]

There are extrabiblical sources mentioning Jesus or Paul; and I have a feeling you know that.

But for the record, let's say there weren't.

Would that surprise you?

No contemporary sources, chief. But I have a feeling you knew that.

 

[HitchSlap]

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Your words are mere words. You present confusion and error.

One miracle from Jesus overturns your "no god - no spiritual world".

I have witnessed Him, His Spirit, and attesting miracles. Miracles that cannot be explained by the natural world.

You are ignorant of the Spiritual Dynamics that are around us. All you can reply is denial and unbelief. You cannot overturn those who have witnessed miracles. There is no worldly evidence that you could present that could overturned what they have witnessed on earth.

God's Kingdom consists of Power. Miracles attest to this, not men's mere words.
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Your credulity does not impress me.

 

[bhsmte]

Your credulity does not impress me.

He had to get his daily sermon in.

 

[Heissonear]

Your credulity does not impress me.

You act like people need your words and perspective. Think again.

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[HitchSlap]

He had to get his daily sermon in.

Ah, I see.



Edit*

I just re-read his post in my best S.M. Lockridge voice, and it makes much more sense that way.

 

[HitchSlap]

You act like people need your words and perspective. Think again.

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Ok, I just did, and I have determined that people like you need my word and perspective. Dig it?