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Hopko and Schmemann?

All4Christ

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I think something hard for us Americans to keep in mind is that illumination and discernment come from Him, and not our own intellect or speculation
Especially those of us who came from a Western background :)
 
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All4Christ

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It's also a struggle to accept that we may not be able to understand everything perfectly and that we don't need to understand everything perfectly.

Trust...obedience...humility...

Tough things to do sometimes!
 
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ArmyMatt

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It's also a struggle to accept that we may not be able to understand everything perfectly and that we don't need to understand everything perfectly.

Trust...obedience...humility...

Tough things to do sometimes!

and to not be impatient when we don't get the answer that we want when we want it.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I think something hard for us Americans to keep in mind is that illumination and discernment come from Him, and not our own intellect or speculation
Ahhhhhh ..... especially me, old habits die hard. I've spent my whole life studying this or that.

Though I admit, often what comes from the faith is an "aha" moment, or something you just KNOW deeply, or else feel uneasy about and can't accept.

But yeah ... it's too easy for me to rely on studying.

Thanks for the reminder.
 
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Phronema

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Thank you guys for making posts that contain a distinction between western and eastern thought when you do. It's quite helpful for a lurker, and seeker such as me.
 
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rusmeister

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Regarding Western thought, even theological thought is guided or nudged certain ways by our ability to think. One general example is, when we are attacking or condemning an idea that is certainly wrong, to lean away from it, not toward the truth, but toward an equal and opposite bad idea, we wind up attacking a straw man. That's why I think you're right about Scripture and the Fathers, and even being satisfied with not knowing, with admitting our ignorance about a thing.

Hopko didn't escape this. In his podcast on "The Slippery Slope", he begins by defending women readers in church from a man who challenged the idea. I'm not challenging the idea here (and don't want to start a debate about it here), only noting that he began by correctly attacking the charge of a slippery slope in regards to the specific issue, but went on to deny the concept of a slippery slope altogether in the podcast. Yes, I know it is fashionable to call the idea "a fallacy", but it isn't a fallacy anywhere it can be shown to have really happened (and I can). He also does it in his talk about evolution (I don't intend to debate that here, either), rightly attacking the idea that everything in Scripture must be read literally (in the popular sense of the word) but goes on to assume that the Genesis account wasn't literal in general.

It's understandable why Western thought in our time insists on the infallibility of science, and on the necessity of synthesis of science with the Scriptural accounts and the teachings of the fathers, and even the superiority of science over the latter, retaining the latter only as mythopoetic imagery, even though no one in the Church ever conceived it as such before the twentieth century (for Philadelphia lawyers, that means the consensus was overwhelmingly that the account was literal). Here I'm just saying that Hopko was, in a few things, susceptible to the thought of our own time as distinct from that consensus over time, and fell for straw men in those things. To those who disagree regarding the issues I refer to, I will say that their views are better defended without straw men, and that goes for all of us. It's not easy and takes practice to see straw men in thinking; on has to be conscious of the possibility of equal and opposite errors, to see them and avoid them when attacking a definite error.

Or, as our old saying goes, 100% of the Church fathers were 99% Orthodox. Once we really get that, we can safely go back and enjoy and marvel at the 99%.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ahhhhhh ..... especially me, old habits die hard. I've spent my whole life studying this or that.

Though I admit, often what comes from the faith is an "aha" moment, or something you just KNOW deeply, or else feel uneasy about and can't accept.

But yeah ... it's too easy for me to rely on studying.

Thanks for the reminder.

oh, I am not saying don't rely on studying, but simply that our life of faith should be what guides our study.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Which, by the grace of God, will no longer be true in the not too distant future.

I doubt it. he was anathematized at an Ecumenical Council, and that anathema was upheld at subsequent councils.
 
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Wryetui

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It is interesting to me what you said about "when in doubt, ask God for discernment", ArmyMatt, since you made it sound so easy. My question is now, is it really that easy? The thought that I am not good enough or holy enough for God to talk to me and tell me what is right or wrong in an issue always comes to my mind.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It is interesting to me what you said about "when in doubt, ask God for discernment", ArmyMatt, since you made it sound so easy. My question is now, is it really that easy? The thought that I am not good enough or holy enough for God to talk to me and tell me what is right or wrong in an issue always comes to my mind.

well, none of us are holy enough. God gives it because He loves us. so as you read, begin with the Fathers and Scripture, and as you commune and confess, you trust that God will guide you when it comes to questionable or heretical stuff, even if what is wrong is sandwiched in among a lot of good
 
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I doubt it. he was anathematized at an Ecumenical Council, and that anathema was upheld at subsequent councils.
I don't know the ends and out of this but I have read from some top level Christian thinkers that I admire and trust who believe that Origen's teachings & beliefs morphed into something he would not recognize and it is those teachings that were (maybe) condemned.

He died in good standing with the Church and it was centuries later when his problems started. Some scholars say that his teachings were never officially condemned at any of the ecumenical councils.

What is for certain is that he was a deeply committed Christian and one of the most influential ever.
 
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ArmyMatt

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none of that has more authority of an Ecumenical Council. plus, St Epiphanius condemned him as a heretic long before Constantinople 2. there is no doubt he is listed among the heretics, and not just his teachings, but him personally.
 
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Lukaris

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There are also things some of us have to accept, but will suspect, like the emperor Justinian as a saint. Sometimes one must bite their tongue for the greater good but it is also ok to question.
 
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ArmyMatt

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There are also things some of us have to accept, but will suspect, like the emperor Justinian as a saint. Sometimes one must bite their tongue for the greater good but it is also ok to question.

I think if you take a look at his theological writings it's pretty clear he is a saint
 
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Lukaris

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I think if you take a look at his theological writings it's pretty clear he is a saint

I want to be careful and not derail the thread. It is just my intent to mention an example that some individuals can reasonably question but must accept. It is some delicate balance of his theology & cruelty but we still must accept that the church calls him a saint.
 
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Superb.

It is very easy, in a capacity as an authoritative teacher in the Church, to come close to or even cross lines into wrong teaching, which is what heresy is.
There are legitimate criticisms, and they must be assessed in degree. Not everything is black and white. Shmemann is flat-out a model of gratitude, the key to joy, for us. Hopko is a model of speaking to modern pluralist Americans who swallow truths more easily if they think the speaker doesn't sound dogmatically sure of them. (His mannerisms ("I don't know", "It seems to me", etc when speaking about definitive dogma) drive me crazy, but I get their effectiveness in the environment we live in today.)

It is possible to go too far in something. And usually, in my experience, it is in the direction of one of two equal and opposite errors. A person can, for example, say that "only Orthodox can be saved". Or they can take the opposite tack of ecumenism and say that it doesn't matter whether you are in the Orthodox Church or not.
Or they might teach that every word in the Bible has to be taken literally, that there is no metaphor or allegory, or the opposite error of saying that many or most miraculous events described are only metaphor or allegory.

Hopko was a thoroughgoing evolutionist. He believed that modern science, a result of modern education, produces truth about our origins that must be reconciled with patristic teaching, even to the point of belittling the latter. I still hope to write a criticism of his podcast on "the Slippery Slope", in which he was right about the specific case he defended, and wrong in denying and deriding the concept in general.

Shmemann was an ecumenist. He did believe in the Orthodox Church, but swung too far in the direction of "it doesn't matter".

Heck, I even found hints in Met Antony Bloom that he might have supported women's ordination, and more than hints in Met Kallistos Ware.

Such tend to be linchpins for "liberal" folk in the Church, and while they themselves did/do not teach such things as teachers like Fr Robert Arida have been trying to introduce (the legitimacy of homosexuality in the Church), their tendencies were influential in such directions.

I would stress the vital role Shmemann played in revitalizing the Orthodox Church in America, of turning it from a moribund club of isolationist immigrants to a thing that reaches out to Americans and fulfills "the Great Commission", and Hopko's continuation of that, combined with his down-to-earth relatability that Americans so desperately need, and let's face it, we really couldn't perceive Shmemann as American.

So there's no simple verdict. But overall, there is definitely much more good than bad, but you need to understand that they were "only human", and what exactly they went wrong in, even while being incredibly and deeply right about so many other things.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I want to be careful and not derail the thread. It is just my intent to mention an example that some individuals can reasonably question but must accept. It is some delicate balance of his theology & cruelty but we still must accept that the church calls him a saint.

yes, he is a saint in spite of that. and he is not the only one who used methods we would today consider cruel or wrong. like with any saint, it's the totality of his life (and this can tie in to Hopko and Schmemann) that we look to as Orthodox.
 
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