Hopko and Schmemann?

[Kristos]

And it also implies she wasn't involved in any strenuous activity that can cause that or the myriad of other ways it can be broken without sexual intercourse...I've never considered (before hearing about this) that the Church considered that to be what being a virgin meant physically. It'd seem more likely that it would refer to the effacement of the cervix or something else like that since there are many ways to break the hymen other than intercourse (such as strenuous exercise like riding a horse or even a donkey for long periods of time).

It feels strange talking about this with the Theotokos.

I agree - it is a bit strange to put it in these terms, but the euphemisms seem to be a bit ambiguous - especially if we going to declare someone to be "in error" for saying this or that...

 

[gzt]

An imperforate hymen would be a complete seal - but is this really what we are saying?

Right, and note that an imperforate hymen is a rare abnormality, generally the opening is only partially covered. I don't recall if ancient medical texts discussed this whole set of issues, as I didn't really pay that much attention to that aspect of human anatomy when reading Aristotle and Galen - though whatever is actually the case there will likely be surprising and confound the distinctions we're trying to draw here when it comes to defining these things. So, again, we have to take some real caution before pretending we even know what the canon in question means, much less the biblical text and Fr Thomas' interpretation. EDIT: and much less whether he's even close to being in error here. So, again, no need to worry when reading Winter Pascha.

 

[jckstraw72]

Again, Fr. Thomas says in the book there is nothing miraculous at all about the birthgiving itself, and yet the Church says she gave birth without pain and without blood.

 

[gzt]

Aaaand Fr Thomas also explains that she gave birth without pain.

 

[jckstraw72]

Elsewhere. We are discussing what he wrote in Winter Pascha. Winter Pascha is a written text - nothing prevented him from editing it after realizing she gave birth without pain. But the text itself remains incorrect. Surely you realize that there will be people who will read the book, and not listen to this other lecture somewhere to hear the corrective. I, for one, have never heard this lecture.

Compare and contrast:

Fr. Hopko: "There is no teaching of any other sort of a miracle in regard to His birth."
(here the only miracle is the virginity)

Canon 79 of the Council of Trullo states, “Confessing the divine childbirth to have resulted from the Virgin without confinement (i.e., childbed), as well as without its being induced by seed …” St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite says that childbed “consists in giving birth to an infant with the accompanying pangs of childbirth and is followed by a flux of blood, according to Zonaras.”
(here there is the absence of childbed in addition to the virginity)

 

[jckstraw72]

It would be alright to admit that Fr. Tom may have made some errors. That doesn't mean you have to go all the way and call him a heretic like the ppl in the FB thread. But you don't have to hide your head in the sand either and deny any errors.

 

[gzt]

Nobody's putting their head in the sand.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It would be alright to admit that Fr. Tom may have made some errors. That doesn't mean you have to go all the way and call him a heretic like the ppl in the FB thread. But you don't have to hide your head in the sand either and deny any errors.

exactly. heck, even Fr Tom would admit (and did admit) that he has made errors over the years, has not been as clear as he should have been, etc. and when he has made them, he always said to follow the Church.

St Cyril of Alexandria thought the phrase, "one Nature of the Word of God Incarnate" came from St Athanasius. in fact, it came from the heretic Apollinaris. doesn't make St Cyril any less of a saint, but it also doesn't make that error true.

 

[jckstraw72]

Nobody's putting their head in the sand.

there's some notable exceptions

 

[rusmeister]

there's some notable exceptions

There ARE some notable exceptions.

Just because you make a grammar error doesn't make it true.