Homosexuality

[Loudmouth]

Ever see the signs that say "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone....."

Try to deny someone service to someone because they are black, and see how far that sign gets you. How does putting up a sign absolve you of discrimination?

It is their right, and their rights were trampled on.

Businesses do not have the right to discriminate.

It is time we fight for our rights, religious freedom is part of our constitutional rights.

Religious freedom does not include discrimination as part of a public business. If that were the case, then segregation would still be going strong.

 

[Loudmouth]

So, that being said I really don't think the state has any business attempting to control marriage period. To me marriage is an oath between a man and a woman and God. Outside the Judeo-Christian world I don't see that marriage has any particular merit. So if atheists or gays want to have some sort of ceremony and call it a marriage then so be it. I don't think the state should be involved in my marriage or theirs.

In the same vein, gays have been pledging themselves to one another in commitment ceremonies for decades now. They stand in front of their friends, family, and community and pledge to honor and love one another. This is the same as your vision of christian marriage.

The problem is that there are legal benefits to marriage. For example, without being married a family can make death bed decisions without involving that person's partner. A gay partner can actually be banned from even entering a hospital room if the family decides to. When gay partners break up there is no recourse to recoup shared investments. There is difficulty in getting insurance and medical benefits if there isn't a marriage certificate. These are the things that gay couples are seeking.

The OTHER side of that coin however is that the state should not force me as a Christian to be involved with something that I consider an abomination.

Then you shouldn't run a business that requires you to do things that you consider an abomination.

When you open a business that is open to the public you have made a pledge to society that you are not going to discriminate. If you can't keep that pledge, then you shouldn't be in that business.

You say the Colorado baker still has the right to go to church. His rights do not end at the church house doors.

His religious rights do not extend to discriminating as part of a public business. If that were the case, then people would have never had to take these signs down.

As long as his religious practice doesn't harm someone else.

Being denied services at businesses is harmful as determined by the courts.

and by harm I mean physically harm, not "emotionally upset".

So what is the physical harm that comes to a baker when they bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Basically the government doesn't belong in the pastry shop or the bedroom.

Tell that to the health inspector, USDA, OSHA, labor office, IRS, etc.

Obviously, public businesses are regulated by the government, and the government has every right to regulate businesses.

 

[retlaw]

The problem is that there are legal benefits to marriage. For example, without being married a family can make death bed decisions without involving that person's partner. A gay partner can actually be banned from even entering a hospital room if the family decides to. When gay partners break up there is no recourse to recoup shared investments. There is difficulty in getting insurance and medical benefits if there isn't a marriage certificate. These are the things that gay couples are seeking.

Then you shouldn't run a business that requires you to do things that you consider an abomination.

When you open a business that is open to the public you have made a pledge to society that you are not going to discriminate. If you can't keep that pledge, then you shouldn't be in that business.

On the issues you bring up about death bed decisions. Why is the government involved with that? It's none of their business. If gay's want a neat ending to things you can hire lawyers to draft up a contract and use the civil courts if necessary.

Where do you get this "You have made a pledge to society" crap. The cake maker doesn't owe society jack squat. It's simple, he makes pastries, if people like them they buy them. It's not the same as a tax payer funded facility like a bus station or sports arena. It's a private business. If the town folk don't like the way he operates they can get rid of him pretty quick, just stop buying his stuff. Even if he denied entry to black folks the best thing to do is to have a black person open a pastry shop next door, put a sign up that says I serve those who are NOT racists, undercut his prices and put him out of business, NOT get the government involved.

I live in the southern united states where many of these conflicts took place most recently. the forgotten part of segregation was that during the time that was segregated black businessmen made a fortune because they had a closed market. When everything was desegregated most of those black owned businesses failed. to date I don't think the black business community has ever recovered. Government intervention was definitely needed because the Klan was hanging black folks because they were black. But the government interference into business never has a long term positive results. the free market always makes the right choice for the long term.

You make a 1 to 1 comparison of gay rights and the civil rights movement. This was never accepted until president Obama gave his approval of that. Obviously you have swallowed that lie hook line and sinker but you and president Obama agreeing on something doesn't make it right.

 

[Loudmouth]

Loudmouth, give us the names of the churches that promote hate towards homosexuals and stop making blanket statements like that.

The Chalcedon Foundation, named after a 451 A.D. council that proclaimed the state’s subservience to God, was started in 1965 by Rousas John Rushdoony, who is known as “father of Christian Reconstruction” theology. Led by Rushdoony’s son, Mark, since the elder Rushdoony’s death in 2001, the foundation continues to push for the imposition of Old Testament law on America and the world.

Reconstruction, as described in R.J. Rushdoony’s foundational 1973 book The Institutes of Biblical Law, is opposed to modern notions of equality, democracy or tolerance — instead, it embraces the most draconian of religious views. Rushdoony supported the death penalty for homosexuals, among other “abominators.” He also opposed what he called “unequal yoking” — interracial marriage — and “enforced integration,” insisting that “[a]ll men are NOT created equal before God” (the Bible, he explained, “recognizes that some people are by nature slaves”). Rushdoony also denied the Holocaust, saying the murder of 6 million Jews was “false witness.”
http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform...browse-all-issues/2010/winter/the-hard-liners​

You see we as Christians look at all fellow Christians as being of one body of believers.

I fully support christians determining what their beliefs and and how they should live. I am not here to debate whether or not homosexuality is a sin within the christian faith. What I am discussing is how this society treats non-christians, and how it views personal freedoms.

 

[Loudmouth]

On the issues you bring up about death bed decisions. Why is the government involved with that?

Because that is what a government and law is for. It sets the rules for how citizens interact, how their rights are protected, etc.

Where do you get this "You have made a pledge to society" crap.

It's called morality. You should look into it.

We have this thing called society. When you are part of a society you have responsibilities to that society. It is one of the most basic fundamentals of being human.

It's a private business.

It stops being a private business when it starts doing business with the public. The government is given the power to regulate businesses and commerce. It's right there in the US Constitution.

If the town folk don't like the way he operates they can get rid of him pretty quick, just stop buying his stuff. Even if he denied entry to black folks the best thing to do is to have a black person open a pastry shop next door, put a sign up that says I serve those who are NOT racists, undercut his prices and put him out of business, NOT get the government involved.

Yes, because that worked so well for segregation.

I live in the southern united states where many of these conflicts took place most recently. the forgotten part of segregation was that during the time that was segregated black businessmen made a fortune because they had a closed market. When everything was desegregated most of those black owned businesses failed. to date I don't think the black business community has ever recovered. Government intervention was definitely needed because the Klan was hanging black folks because they were black. But the government interference into business never has a long term positive results. the free market always makes the right choice for the long term.

If you think that a few people getting rich justifies injustice, racism, and immorality, then I would suggest that you read the New Testament.

You make a 1 to 1 comparison of gay rights and the civil rights movement. This was never accepted until president Obama gave his approval of that. Obviously you have swallowed that lie hook line and sinker but you and president Obama agreeing on something doesn't make it right.

I have considered it to be a civil rights matter since the Clinton administration.

 

[Sammy-San]

Try to deny someone service to someone because they are black, and see how far that sign gets you. How does putting up a sign absolve you of discrimination?



Businesses do not have the right to discriminate.



Religious freedom does not include discrimination as part of a public business. If that were the case, then segregation would still be going strong.

The baker in Colorado did not deny service for the simple fact that his customers were gay. He denied service because of the fact that the cake was used to celebrate a sinful union-a gay marriage.

You are asking people to live a double life, and do things that goes against their beliefs. While refusing to sell a cake to a gay couple for their wedding (who could just as easily buy a cake from a different bakery), may be politically incorrect, it doesn't make the politically correct choice morally correct.

 

[pescador]

Try to deny someone service to someone because they are black, and see how far that sign gets you. How does putting up a sign absolve you of discrimination?



Businesses do not have the right to discriminate.



Religious freedom does not include discrimination as part of a public business. If that were the case, then segregation would still be going strong.

I agree 110%! People in the United States are guaranteed equal protection under the law, without exception.

 

[Loudmouth]

The baker in Colorado did not deny service for the simple fact that his customers were gay. He denied service because of the fact that the cake was used to celebrate a sinful union-a gay marriage.

If you think mixed race marriages are sinful you still can't deny service just because the couple is of mixed race.

Can we really say that we live in a free country when people are allowed to be discriminated against because they do not adhere to religious beliefs that we choose for them?

You are asking people to live a double life, and do things that goes against their beliefs.

Just as we did for segregationists. Personal beliefs are not a valid reason for discriminating against people in public businesses.

While refusing to sell a cake to a gay couple for their wedding (who could just as easily buy a cake from a different bakery), may be politically incorrect, it doesn't make the politically correct choice morally correct.

Then you have to ask yourself if it is moral to discriminate against people in a free country because they do not follow your religion.

 

[Alithis]

It's waffle and hot air.too many people become obsessed with man's fickle laws and they are laws which change more and more swiftly on a whim.
Love and speak the Gospel.
Any one who believes in the lord Jesus..and so lays down their own life ,will,desire as evidence that they truly do believe ...will not perish but have everlasting life.
Those that refuse to believe do not perish because they refuse,but because they were already perishing before they heard this good news.

 

[tremble]

I think this constant comparison to ethnic segregation misses the point. In the case of the cake baker, why not change the conditions slightly to make it more clear.

Let's say an atheist walks into the bakery and asks the baker to make a cake with the words, "Jesus isn't real" for their "Jesus isn't real" party.

Would the cake maker still be obligated to make the cake? Is the only choice for the cake maker to deny Jesus or stop making cakes?

By forcing a Christian to participate in an activity which goes against what God teaches, you force them to deny God.

Discrimination in itself is neither good nor bad. We ALL discriminate every day. Discriminating between two seemingly equal choices, to find the better of the two, is called wisdom. I discriminate against the choice I find to be lacking, by not choosing it.

Let's say a gay couple wants a b-day cake for their friend or relative. Another gay couple comes in wanting a cake for their wedding. The baker must discriminate between the two choices.

One does not violate any standards of God. The other does. This makes it clear that it's not about gay people wanting cake, but about promoting an activity which goes against their conscience.

On the other hand, I think we Christians need to accept that we are fighting a losing war. We still need to stand up for what we think is right, but spiritually, the world is drying up. We will increasingly need to make a stand which could inconvenience us, whether it's financially or physically.

I doubt anyone wants to go to jail, but this guy has a pretty good platform for witnessing now. The Christian who went to jail for refusing to support homosexuality. Not for hating gays or being mean to them, but for refusing to support their lifestyle.

 

[retlaw]

Can we really say that we live in a free country when people are allowed to be discriminated against because they do not adhere to religious beliefs that we choose for them?

The only way you live in a free country is if everyone is allowed to do what they want, currently the governments is picking and choosing who is free and who isn't according to which way the wind is blowing. The government which is now mowing down anyone who apposes homosexuality is the SAME government which once promoted discrimination against black people. Same government, just different wind direction.

Freedom can only truly exist if it applies to everyone. Anything short of that is just one group oppressing another. More and more Christians are the ones being oppressed. Many seem to hold that this is good, that this oppression is well deserved, that we have done the world so much harm that we should be eradicated in fact. There are going to be a lot of shocked people on judgement day.

 

[RBPerry]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

The issue is if my moral convictions based on my religious beliefs keeps me from participating in something I feel is morally wrong. I have an constitutional right to exercise those convictions. I must be able to support my religious beliefs based on the beliefs of whatever religion I follow. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin and in the old testament was punishable by death. So by performing any service that aids or supports homosexuality; most Christians would believe they would be in conflict with the word of God.

 

[Loudmouth]

The only way you live in a free country is if everyone is allowed to do what they want, currently the governments is picking and choosing who is free and who isn't according to which way the wind is blowing.

The basic concept is explained the the old saw "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins". Violating the rights of others is not part of living in a free country. Never has been.

The government which is now mowing down anyone who apposes homosexuality . . .

This is a complete misrepresentation. People are still allowed to oppose mixed race marriages. What they aren't allowed to do is discriminate against mixed race couples as part of their business. Do you understand the difference or not?

More and more Christians are the ones being oppressed.

Hold on. Let me get this straight.

Christians want to deny services to people because christians don't like their relationships. The government is saying that christians should treat all people equally.

From this, you reach the conclusion that it is the christians who are being oppressed. Am I getting this right? Using your logic, the segregationists were oppressed by the Civil Rights Act.

 

[Loudmouth]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

The issue is if my moral convictions based on my religious beliefs keeps me from participating in something I feel is morally wrong. I have an constitutional right to exercise those convictions.

Those rights do not extend to taking away the rights of other people. They never have.

If your moral convictions or religious beliefs will not allow you to treat people equally as part of your business, then you shouldn't be in that business. It is that simple.

The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin and in the old testament was punishable by death. So by performing any service that aids or supports homosexuality; most Christians would believe they would be in conflict with the word of God.

Where does the Bible say that performing services for gay couples is punishable by death? What if you fix a Hindu's car? Will you be held liable for the Hindu's violation of worshiping a deity other than God?

 

[RBPerry]

Those rights do not extend to taking away the rights of other people. They never have.

It isn't about taking anyone's rights away, they can take their business elsewhere. As with the cake maker, he wasn't the only cake maker in the world. A pastor refusing to perform a gay marriage, isn't taking their rights way, he is merely holding true to his convictions. The gay couple can certainly find someone else to perform the marriage.

Why would you want to force someone to go against their religious convictions? Reality; it is the gay community that are bigots, many basically hate Christians. In San Francisco many Christians have been assaulted by gay people, and it happens frequently. The sick part of it is the liberal jerks running that city won't do anything about it.

We have several gay couples in our church, a few of them are trolls looking for reasons to discredit our church and school. Our school teaches, as I do, that homosexuality is a sin and is basically sexual perversion. This infuriates some of the gays that attend our church but they are free to go anywhere else they choose. Instead they want to force their beliefs on us. The others accept and respect our rights to believe and teach as we do. At least Christian children will be taught the truth.

 

[Aldebaran]

Hold on. Let me get this straight.

Christians want to deny services to people because christians don't like their relationships. The government is saying that christians should treat all people equally.

The government is "saying" no such thing. What they are doing is instead forcing people by decree to do something that is against their own beliefs. Is it the role of the government to be doing that? Does that protect freedom of religion? Call it choosing, discriminating, or whatever. If I'm told I have to recognize a gay couple as being equal to a married man and woman, I will choose not to comply. That's my conviction, that's my choice, and I have that freedom--which is what this government is supposed to be protecting. The gay people that I don't recognize as being in a "marriage" are also free to deal with someone else if they want to.

 

[Aldebaran]

We have several gay couples in our church, a few of them are trolls looking for reasons to discredit our church and school. Our school teaches, as I do, that homosexuality is a sin and is basically sexual perversion. This infuriates some of the gays that attend our church but they are free to go anywhere else they choose. Instead they want to force their beliefs on us. The others accept and respect our rights to believe and teach as we do. At least Christian children will be taught the truth.

The church is the body of believers. If these gay people are only there to stir up trouble, they should be asked to leave. I think the Apostle Paul has said something to this effect.

It stops being a private business when it starts doing business with the public. The government is given the power to regulate businesses and commerce. It's right there in the US Constitution.

A private business is one that is owned by private citizens versus the government. A bake shop owned by me is a private business. The highway department is run by the government and not controlled by any one citizen. That's the difference. So a bake shop owned by someone is run in the way chosen by the owner, and they can chose to do business with whomever they choose.

 

[Loudmouth]

It isn't about taking anyone's rights away, they can take their business elsewhere.

The Supreme Court disagrees. People's rights are taken away when they are discriminated against in public businesses.

Katzenbach v. McClung - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Courts have supported equal protection as part of business practice for quite some time. Personal beliefs can not be used as an excuse to discriminate as part of a public business.

A pastor refusing to perform a gay marriage, isn't taking their rights way, he is merely holding true to his convictions.

A pastor is not a public business.

Why would you want to force someone to go against their religious convictions?

No one is forcing christians to run businesses that serve weddings. If your religious beliefs prevent you from treating the public in a fair manner, then I would suggest that you find a new business to be involved in.

Reality; it is the gay community that are bigots, many basically hate Christians. In San Francisco many Christians have been assaulted by gay people, and it happens frequently. The sick part of it is the liberal jerks running that city won't do anything about it.

Reminds me of white segregationists making up horror stories about being attacked by black civil rights activitists.

Yes, those poor white segregationists were oppressed by the evil black bigots. Oh the horror!!!!!!

 

[Loudmouth]

A private business is one that is owned by private citizens versus the government.

It stops being private when it does business with the public. When it does so, it comes under the commerce section of the US Constitution and can be regulated.

So a bake shop owned by someone is run in the way chosen by the owner, and they can chose to do business with whomever they choose.

Start a bake shop and put up a sign that says, "White People Only". See how long it is before you are successfully sued for discrimination.

 

[RBPerry]

The church is the body of believers. If these gay people are only there to stir up trouble, they should be asked to leave. I think the Apostle Paul has said something to this effect.

I disagree, we are to love all people, that includes gay people. Turning them away is not loving them, Jesus taught us to love our enemies, not reject them. I can admittedly disagree with a persons opinion or lifestyle, but still love them, and care about their well being. Accepting a person as they are is not endorsing their behavior, none of us are sinless and remember Jesus reached out to the sinners.