Homosexuality

[Aldebaran]

If I put a sign in the window saying "We reserve the right to deny service to anyone", it is my right to not accept money for goods or services, right? Regardless of the reason. It's like "No shoes, no shirt, no service". I guess, if I run a business, I could just say "I don't like the color of your money." and be done with it.
I don't have anything against homosexuals, but that doesn't mean I have to accept the life they lead. So, if you come in my bakery and want to buy a cookie, no worries. If you come in, and want me to bake you a 'wedding' cake for you and your partner, it is my right to exercise my religious freedom and say no.

Actually, there are many occasions where people have had an objection to doing business with someone else--even as a customer. Sometimes a person decides they don't want to go to certain stores. Many people won't go to Walmart because they think WM doesn't treat their workers fairly. Some people refuse to buy anything made in China. Nobody says, "You just don't like asian people" for that decision. Some people don't like political statements made by the CEO of a company, and so won't do business there. Just this morning, I was listening to a talk show where the host said he'd never by a GM vehicle again because they took a bailout from the government. It goes on and on....

But if a baker decides not to bake a cake, he's taken to court.

 

[Lollerskates]

It isnt a hard wiring, I know from first hand experience. There are many factors that determine sexuality: birth alignment isn't one of them. And, if it is, it can be changed. It can be changed - in both directions. Perhaps I am an exception (I doubt it,) but, again I know from first hand experience.

 

[tremble]

It isnt a hard wiring, I know from first hand experience. There are many factors that determine sexuality: birth alignment isn't one of them. And, if it is, it can be changed. It can be changed - in both directions. Perhaps I am an exception (I doubt it,) but, again I know from first hand experience.

I'm curious about the difference you see between being born gay or learning to be gay from a young age.

Personally, I think it should make little difference in how we deal with them as adults. For example, lets say that gays are not born gay; it's something they learn from an early age.

How early do they learn it? How ingrained does it become for them? Should we try to convince them to instead learn to like the opposite sex? How should we convince them of that? I've met homosexuals who become physically repulsed at the idea of going for the opposite sex; they are quite certain they only like the same sex.

I met a lesbian who said she first realized that she liked females when she was 5, from holding hands with other girls. Turns out it wasn't just a phase for her.

She was very sure of what she wanted so just convincing her to like guys didn't seem to be an option. One of her friends said she tried dating a guy for over a year to convince herself that she didn't like women, but it didn't work.

It just feels like determining whether a person is born gay or learns to be gay is more of an interesting curiosity than a genuine solution.

 

[Lollerskates]

I'm curious about the difference you see between being born gay or learning to be gay from a young age.

Personally, I think it should make little difference in how we deal with them as adults. For example, lets say that gays are not born gay; it's something they learn from an early age.

How early do they learn it? How ingrained does it become for them? Should we try to convince them to instead learn to like the opposite sex? How should we convince them of that? I've met homosexuals who become physically repulsed at the idea of going for the opposite sex; they are quite certain they only like the same sex.

I met a lesbian who said she first realized that she liked females when she was 5, from holding hands with other girls. Turns out it wasn't just a phase for her.

She was very sure of what she wanted so just convincing her to like guys didn't seem to be an option. One of her friends said she tried dating a guy for over a year to convince herself that she didn't like women, but it didn't work.

It just feels like determining whether a person is born gay or learns to be gay is more of an interesting curiosity than a genuine solution.

There is so much more that goes into it than learned behavior, especially at a young age. Chemistry is a big part. I wont get into even my "flip flops," and suggest why my history may or may not have played a part, but for me I actually tried to "pray the gay away (keep reading.)"

Except, it never went away, I was just shown that my supposed frozen in sexuality was a lie. I was able to "do it the right way," court my fiance, and then develop serious attraction to her the more I loved her. It got to the point where she was the only thing I was ever paying attention to physically. I think a large part of sexuality is about missing something non-sexual. It is also pressure to "perform," and the majority of the world is centered on sex. Even the most prudish of the lot rarely wait more than a year before having sex. So, there is a culture that can easily breed focus on physical aspects of sexuality when, it is much deeper. For me, it isn't about getting "excited" seeing an attractive person anymore; perhaps instead of the temptations for either sex just being destroyed, my focus is on the correct way to engage a mate. So, the "attraction" part becomes trivial. After all, sexual passion dies for a season in relationships; love is always burning if the relationship is right.

Some people are asexual until adulthood. Some are repulsed by the opposite sex, then make a sudden 180 flip at middle age. Some people go to jail straight, and fall in lust/love with the same sex. Some people have bisexual attraction. I have met many men attracted primarily to the same sex that come from wonderful backgrounds - with a mother and father that love them and give them attention, uncles and grandelders that are involved in their lives, and they never develop the cliche flamboyant behavior. I have met many straight men that grew up without fathers in their lives, who were raised by many women, and even grew up effeminately awkward. There is so much that goes into sexuality that saying it is a genetic hardwire is marginalizing the processes that go into sexuality. Love can literally change anything, especially if people are desperately searching for it everywhere. Sometimes love is confused with emotional availability and accessibility, which influences sexuality often.

 

[tremble]

Very good post, loller. Sexual preferences continues changing or developing for many people as they move through their lives so it really matters very little whether it's a genetic thing from birth or a learned behaviour as a child.

We need to be ready to deal with people where they are at currently. However, I also think there could be some merit in reviewing the past to looking for significant events which help to identify preference development but only in the context of helping the person in the present.

 

[Lollerskates]

Very good post, loller. Sexual preferences continues changing or developing for many people as they move through their lives so it really matters very little whether it's a genetic thing from birth or a learned behaviour as a child.

We need to be ready to deal with people where they are at currently. However, I also think there could be some merit in reviewing the past to looking for significant events which help to identify preference development but only in the context of helping the person in the present.

I think one's history in relation to sexuality is important personally, not necessarily scientifically. We cant keep perpetuating the cliche that, for example, female strippers and gay men have daddy issues, or that homosexuals are made of pure deviant lust dust. People get raped, abused, abandoned, and the whole gauntlet of trauma - but, it doesn't mean anything really on a large scale of sexuality. It can influence sexuality, but so can eating large amounts of soy, or drinking estrogen-rich water from the tap. Part of the problem I think is that sexuality is becoming an object...a problem to be solved like math. But, even some math problems have no solutions that can be evaluated by the most advanced human techniques. Sexuality likewise.

To glean from common philosophy, we have to judge the moments, and live in them to understand sexuality... Then extrapolate those moments to a future. As I said, the feelings dont go away; sexuality is a seriously intricate and intimate thing. But, it is malleable. Love is more powerful than the combination of all the energy in the universe, so the cliche that "love conquers all" may have some merit - at least I know it does with the fluidity of sexuality.

It just feels like determining whether a person is born gay or learns to be gay is more of an interesting curiosity than a genuine solution.

I think that hits the nail on the head: the origin of sexuality is more of a curiosity than a genuine solution. Mathematician call the latter the "unique solution," the answer that works in every possible solution. I dont think that solution exists physically. Even if there is a gene discovered that contributes ti homosexuality and heterosexuality, it wont be the unique solution. At best, I would equate it with philosophical advancement in understanding.

"There is more than one way to skin a cat..."

 

[Aldebaran]

How early do they learn it? How ingrained does it become for them? Should we try to convince them to instead learn to like the opposite sex? How should we convince them of that? I've met homosexuals who become physically repulsed at the idea of going for the opposite sex; they are quite certain they only like the same sex.

I met a lesbian who said she first realized that she liked females when she was 5, from holding hands with other girls. Turns out it wasn't just a phase for her.

The example you give is one that I believe indicates that it's mostly a learned behavior. Although I'd be surprised if anyone learns which sex they are attracted to at 5 years old, but events at that age can certainly be a contributing factor in their development.

The fact that some people going to prison for long periods of time go in straight and come out gay is an example of how a person isn't born that way, but can choose one way or another, although not always without strong influence. If a younger person who is sexually active is isolated with those of the same sex, then it's almost like they're being strongly persuaded into homosexuality that way. If they try it and like something about it, then it could influence how they continue their life when no longer in isolation.

The same principle could apply to alcoholism or smoking. Trying it opens the door to liking it, which opens the door to continuing it.

 

[com7fy8]

Genes are physical, and so are circumstances. So, I would say that genes and circumstances physical do not decide what your spiritual heart desires.

And a preference is a desire; so what you prefer is in your heart.

And Jesus does say, "'For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.'" (Matthew 6:21)

So, I do not buy that gay preference is decided by physical genes and outward circumstances. But an atheist might not believe in the existence of spiritual beings; so an atheist could think that material things like genes can decide a person's personality and preferences . . . if the atheist does not believe in the existence of deeper, nonmaterial and therefore spiritual reality.

But Jesus shows that we do have hearts spiritual, I understand. So, I would say, going by the Bible, that sexual preference is decided by what a person treasures in one's heart . . . not by genes and circumstances.

Even if a person has a bad upbringing by parents, still it is possible for the child to know other children who have been brought up right, and get to know these children and discover they don't "have" to be the way their own parents are influencing them to be. Good example can win people to "faith working through love." (in Galatians 5:6)

Also . . . if the Bible says that gay stuff is wrong, then any "tendency" to do a wrong thing would be a wrong tendency wouldn't it? So, it is not enough to stop the wrong behavior. God is able to correct us in the character of our hearts and emotions so that we are not available to being messed-with by wrong desires and preferences. In God's grace we have this almighty and sweetly soothing immunity to sin-sick stuff. His power is greater than any "drives" that are dictatorial and bossy and nagging . . . like Satan and his spirit is (Ephesians 2:2). "You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world." (1 John 4:4) But we all need to grow in this, so we overcome whatever can get the better of any of us > and have compassion about others > "He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

The Bible tells us that gay stuff is wrong, because we need to know this for ourselves so we do not get into what is wrong. And we need to know, then, that any thinking or feelings or starting of a tendency is wrong, if it is for a wrong thing, and right away battle this by submitting to God to win the battle > "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7) If a wrong thing starts in me, it is ridiculous for me to make it my identity!! And making a pleasure preference my main thing of identity is not exactly making my identity all about Jesus.

I think a lot of worldly people are about pleasure. So, a gay sexual preference can be really about preference for pleasure. Because sexual sensations are nice feeling and fairly easy to get . . . usually not needing much money or intelligence or honesty to get sexual pleasure.

But people say it is a no-no because the Bible says so. And we already know how little children and teenagers, even, can scream how we hate them when we tell them they can't do something that is wrong. And they can suffer so much, emotionally, and say we are abusing them. Well, if someone were to effectively mess with you getting your pleasure which you really treasure, how might you be able to react? Any of us can get pretty nasty, hurt, and confused, when someone either threatens or effectively interferes with us getting what we selfishly treasure.

So, if ones claim that "gays" are being "hated" and rejected, what this can be talking about is ones are suffering about not being told that their wrong stuff is ok. And, like I say, there are plenty of "straight" people who can be very crooked in how they react to not getting their selfish way. So, when someone claims that a gay person was "hurt" by Christians . . . I understand this can be talking about how really Jesus people have simply refused to go along with accepting what the Bible says is wrong.

And . . . in the degradation of selfish pleasure seeking, any of us can fail to grow and develop really right for loving any and all people like Jesus wants . . . including in personal and close sharing > in selfish loving we can have a way of keeping distant, until and if we find who we can use for what we want. In our selfish pleasure seeking and selfish love-styles, we are weak enough to be easily hurt and even take people's caring things the wrong way. And then we can complain about how no one loves us, and church people are abusing us. But Jesus makes us strong for real loving > "And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

This is how some look for mates in church, even > they can show me much interest . . . until they find out I'm not interested in marriage > being a real Christian brother is not good enough for someone, if she can't use me for the pleasures she wants.

I would say, having "chemistry" for pleasure is not exactly the same as loving!

So, the real loss of preference for pleasure is how ones do not know how to love. And so they are not in God's love which would satisfy them and keep them safe emotionally in Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 5:46) In selfish loving and pleasure seeking we can stay weak enough to get into different kinds of personality torments (1 John 4:18) and not do well in relating with any and all people in God's love . . . because, in selfish stuff mainly about ourselves, we are not in His love which protects us emotionally and has us enjoying sound relationships with others who are also all-loving (Matthew 5:46).

So, I would say if someone has a sexual preference problem and wants to change . . . the person does not first need to seek to like ones of the other "sex". But first seek God for Himself (Matthew 6:33, Hebrews 11:6) and how our Father corrects us (Hebrews 12:7-11) to be sharing with Him and submissive to Him in His peace with almighty power to protect us from wrong stuff messing with us. And be corrected and healed into how He has us loving and relating with any and all people. And, therefore, instead of first sorting people out by if we should be attracted to them or not, first love each person, then discover how God blesses

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

 

[Aldebaran]

Genes are physical, and so are circumstances. So, I would say that genes and circumstances physical do not decide what your spiritual heart desires.

Where I would disagree somewhat is that I think circumstances, or events in one's life does expose a person to situations and emotions that they wouldn't have had otherwise. That's why the way a parent brings up their children heavily influences their values and therefore their future.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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