Homosexuality

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I'm aware of the catch 22... which, viewed from a different angle, looks suspiciously like a cop out

How so? Your reply when viewed from a different angle looks like a cop out. so basically that can be said about anything. I'm just giving my opinion of what I understand the verse to mean. What do you think it means?

 

[Floatingaxe]

theres a catch-22 to the mountain moving. One truly in faith desires what is in God's will to do, so the only time a mountain is gonna move is when God is ready for that mountain to move And personally I take that passage as a statement of the size of the things we can do through God, that through Him the impossible is possible, and unmovable is movable.

Yep!

When we are full of the spirit of God, we speak with His authority. Whenever we speak with His authority and within His will, what we ask will come about--every time.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

How so? Your reply when viewed from a different angle looks like a cop out. so basically that can be said about anything. I'm just giving my opinion of what I understand the verse to mean. What do you think it means?

Seriously... I think its metaphorical. Christ is saying we can do great things with a little faith, and this is true. My faith sustains me through the hardest of times. Times when I have felt like completely quiting life my faith has gotten me through.

It doesn't LITERALLY mean we can move mountains with a word, otherwise it would be significantly easier building cathedrals, huh?

But saying "you could move it if God wanted you to, but God doesn't want you too" is just as testable and verifiable a statement as "you can't move mountains by faith"... but the first one seeks to keep God in the equation somehow, and try to make a failure of scripture to seem like a truth... thats the bit thats a cop out

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Yep!

When we are full of the spirit of God, we speak with His authority. Whenever we speak with His authority and within His will, what we ask will come about--every time.

except for all the times that it doesn't.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Seriously... I think its metaphorical. Christ is saying we can do great things with a little faith, and this is true. My faith sustains me through the hardest of times. Times when I have felt like completely quiting life my faith has gotten me through.

I can agree with this.

But saying "you could move it if God wanted you to, but God doesn't want you too" is just as testable and verifiable a statement as "you can't move mountains by faith"... but the first one seeks to keep God in the equation somehow, and try to make a failure of scripture to seem like a truth... thats the bit thats a cop out

we are speaking of faith, which is not one built upon signs and wonders.

Those verses are not in failure, only your interpretation of them is.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I can agree with this.

we are speaking of faith, which is not one built upon signs and wonders.

Those verses are not in failure, only your interpretation of them is.

if you take it literally, its a failure.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

if you take it literally, its a failure.

Do you believe that God is limited and cannot do such a thing?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Do you believe that God is limited and cannot do such a thing?

No. I believe God is omnipotent.

But I don't believe that God has ever moved a mountain for anyone no matter how strong their faith, nor is He ever likely to

 

[David Brider]

An Homosexual desire is sin.

Are you talking about simple attraction, or something more than that? 'Cos I'm not really convinced that homosexual desire (as in attraction) can be any more a sin than heterosexual desire.

A lustful desire is sin.

That I agree on, but there's (presumably) a distinction between attraction and lust. Otherwise every attraction people ever feel - even the initial spark of attraction to the person who becomes ones spouse - is lustful and sinful. And I doubt Jesus meant that.

Commiting sodomy is sin.

Allegedly, but as has been pointed out, the Scriptural basis for that isn't really as strong as you might think, resting as it does on some possibly inaccurate translations and/or interpretations of a handful of verses.

David.

 

[David Brider]

We don't need a spycam. Openly homosexual people give themselves away.

So what exactly is the sin that openly homosexual people keep practicing?

David.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

So what exactly is the sin that openly homosexual people keep practicing?

David.

Making a willing choice to be Godless abominations! Duh!

 

[Floatingaxe]

except for all the times that it doesn't.

If it doesn't happen, then you speak amiss. When you and the Spirit of God are completely united, then what you will to come about is exactly what God desires--it will happen every time.

In Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit I can speak that which is not as though it were!

 

[Floatingaxe]

So what exactly is the sin that openly homosexual people keep practicing?

David.

Lust, sex, whatever method they choose, lewdness, fornication, adultery in some, and in cases where they claim Christianity--hypocrisy, doubt, heresy, and blasphemy.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

If it doesn't happen, then you speak amiss. When you and the Soirit of God are completely united, then what you will to come about is exactly what God desires--it will happen every time.

In Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit I can speak that which is not as though it were!

And so all the times you've prayed to God that I would stop pointing out the errors in your posts, and presenting your inaccuracies and self contradictions, not to mention the Bible's... what went wrong?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Lust, sex, whatever method they choose, lewdness, fornication, adultery in some, and in cases where they claim Christianity--hypocrisy, doubt, heresy, and blasphemy.

yes, because homosexuals are incapable of having a monogomous loving relationship like TRUE Christians

 

[David Brider]

Those "ordained Christian ministers" must have got their certification out of a Cracker Jacks box!

They are no more Christian in their beliefs than my shoe.

Only people who have had a life-changing, regenerating meeting with the living God through the resurrected Jesus Christ, the Messiah, can call themselves Christians.

Those examples you gave of early times reveal men and women who also were not Christians if they denied the resurrection.

One cannot deny the basic truths of the Lord Jesus Christ and take the name of Christian and actually BE one.

I have no idea why people would bother to teach the New Testament and not embrace its truth. You are following after blind guides. What a waste of time.

Okay, fair enough, Ohioprof's theology is a bit off orthodox base, and I don't agree with much of it (the mere fact that she agrees with the Jesus Seminar folk is something I find highly uncomfortable). But...Scripture says that it's by their fruit you shall know them, not by how orthodox their theology is, and I've got to say, in her general demeanour on these boards Ohioprof displays a lot more grace and charity than many other people.

It is a spiritual work of God that changes a person--makes them new so that they no longer are slaves to sin. Homosexuals are a case in point--they are unregenerated and reveal that they are not Christians because they have not renounced their sin (refer to scripture given previously).

Given that the only verses of Scripture that are brought to bear on the matter appear to refer to male-male sex (and may not necessarily refer to that, or at least may not be a blanket ban on all forms of it), what exactly is the sin that homosexuals have not renounced? How do you know with such absolute certainty that a homosexual can't possibly be regenerate? Surely if a homosexual repents of his or her sins and turns to Jesus Christ and receives His gift of salvation, they are born again. To be a homosexual and to be born again of God is not a contradiction.

David.

 

[Floatingaxe]

And so all the times you've prayed to God that I would stop pointing out the errors in your posts, and presenting your inaccuracies and self contradictions, not to mention the Bible's... what went wrong?

I don't pray that, because I haven't made any errors in this debate so far.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Given that the only verses of Scripture that are brought to bear on the matter appear to refer to male-male sex (and may not necessarily refer to that, or at least may not be a blanket ban on all forms of it), what exactly is the sin that homosexuals have not renounced? How do you know with such absolute certainty that a homosexual can't possibly be regenerate? Surely if a homosexual repents of his or her sins and turns to Jesus Christ and receives His gift of salvation, they are born again. To be a homosexual and to be born again of God is not a contradiction.

David.

You cannot be born again if you haven't fully renounced your sin and turned from it. To come to Christ and then run right back into the sin you supposedly renounced is a false conversion.

Clearly spoken here:


1 John 3:4-10
Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.

 

[David Brider]

So what exactly is the sin that openly homosexual people keep practicing?

Lust, sex, whatever method they choose, lewdness, fornication, adultery in some, and in cases where they claim Christianity--hypocrisy, doubt, heresy, and blasphemy.

Lust: Isn't something that one practices, it's a temptation. And like so much on this list, it's in no way exclusive to homosexuals.

Sex: Nowhere near all homosexuals are sexually active, so this can hardly be a sin that openly homosexual keep practicing. In addition to which, as I've pointed out repeatedly, the few verses of Scripture that are taken to apply to homosexuality at the most refer to male-male sex (and probably not to all forms of it anyway), so for female homosexuals to be sexually active one with another doesn't seem to commented on in Scripture at all.

Lewdness, fornication, adultery: Again, nowhere near all homosexuals are engaged in any of these, in addition to which, there are a great many heterosexual people who engage in these activities.

Hypocrisy: I see hypocrisy in many parts of the Church, but very little of it from the my LGBT brothers and sisters in Christ.

Doubt: Not really a sin. We all have doubts from time to time.

Heresy: That's a very specific charge to level at anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation. Could you give specific examples of where you've seen it, particularly with regard to homosexual people?

Blasphemy: Again, a very specific charge, but not one I've noticed as being particularly prevalent amongst LGBT Christians as compared with the rest of the Church.

David.

 

[David Brider]

You cannot be born again if you haven't fully renounced your sin and turned from it. To come to Christ and then run right back into the sin you supposedly renounced is a false conversion.

So do you think that merely being homosexual constitutes a sin?

David.