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Homosexuality

StTherese

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4 legged birds. You loose.
Like I said...some have misinterpreted the Bible...
I would also be careful what version you read!

Leviticus 11:20-23
20 "The various winged insects that walk on all fours are loathsome for you. 21 But of the various winged insects that walk on all fours you may eat those that have jointed legs for leaping on the ground; 22 5 hence of these you may eat the following: the various kinds of locusts, the various kinds of grasshoppers, the various kinds of katydids, and the various kinds of crickets. 23 All other winged insects that have four legs are loathsome for you
 
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intricatic

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I've never taken anything you say as a personal attack, which is one of the ways I know when I AM being attacked, because you and people like you, prove that it is possible to differ in opinion or conclusion without trying to make the other person feel bad.
We live in a weird world where people take texts to be the same as mathematic algorithms. I've really never understood it myself. :scratch:

I mean, you see two teachings in the same book; one says "X is bad." and the other says "Don't judge others because you do the same thing." (Romans 1 and 2 for example ;)), and all of a sudden you have two groups of people who disagree on everything because they focus on only one part of the teaching over the other. That is a paradox.

A PERFECT text would compensate for any possible flaw in any possible reader
You said earlier that when Christ spoke, it was "Deep Truth". Did the Pharisees understand Him at least half the time when He talked to them?

If we had exact transcripts of every detail of Christ's life, I should wonder how many Pharisees we'd see in our world today. Was that problem Christ's fault, or the Pharisees, though?

we agree on the term "paradox" :)
I've seen too much in my life that I can't explain any other way. The Bible sort of filled in the gaps for me in that regard.


like most people's attempt to demonstrate biblically that homosexuality is sinful...
That one's debatable, it would seem. :D

4 legged birds. You loose.
Hey - the language wasn't as categorical as our modern English is. That doesn't make a contradiction, but it does make a rather amusing little tid-bit to run into in an English translation. :p
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Then you go right ahead if that will make you feel better..
Or just MAYBE, we'd be better off not going out of our way looking for obscure justifications to call other people names for doing things that there isn't really anything wrong with.
 
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IamAdopted

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1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
So if we live in Christ we put to death the deeds of the flesh.. As shown above.
 
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IamAdopted

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Or just MAYBE, we'd be better off not going out of our way looking for obscure justifications to call other people names for doing things that there isn't really anything wrong with.
I never called any one a name.. I called an act an abomination..God can change the heart of any man.. Through Christ any man can become a new creation.. Leaving behind the works of the flesh.. I cannot judge any man.. For it is Christ whom saves and not me.. I can though say the act of homosexuality is an abomination in the site of God.. For He says it is..I love the people. THey were also created in the image of God.. It is the act I hate. Not because of whom does them but because of the perverse way the enemy has trapped these people in.. Praying that God will set them free from this.
 
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angelmom01

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Why is homosexuality singled out as something more sinful or more abominable than any other sin?

Pro 6:16-22 These six things doth the LORD HATE: yea, seven are AN ABOMINATION unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. 20 My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: 21 Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck. 22 When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee.

There are probably more Christians guilty of these ABOMINATIONS then there are homosexuals.

Mat 7:1-3 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


angelmom
 
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davedjy

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MORAL LAWS from the Torah continue to stand today. The other laws you quote there are from the civil & ceremonial laws of the Torah - there are 3 sections of the law/categories if you will.
Worship/religious/sacrificial, & civil laws (govt. civil society laws) & Moral.
Moral law was law before the OT Torah was written. Murder by Cain was SIN before the law came. So was all the sin of the people of Sodom & Gomorrah & in Noah's days before the flood (God judged them on their immorality).
So those STAND today. So when Paul "rants" against homosexuality, he's REITERATING THE MORAL LAWS of the OT that are still in effect.
As are the lists of other moral laws. But you don't see the Sacrifical laws *incl. Sabbath observance* or any of the CIVIL laws they followed that day (on farming, animal treatment, etc.).
The same word used to describe "abomination" was used for the dietary laws and even the best scholars will admit that it falls under the purity code in that chapter, which we do not follow.



Nadiine said:
He WAS speaking agaisnt homosexality. Romans 1:18-32 cannot be any clearer than it is in its direct definition & detail of a man with man & woman with woman "exchanging the NATURAL function" & use.

and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore
God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.


In conjunction w/pagan worship/idolatry which is the reason God gave them up.


Since homosexuals didn't retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind.
Since the Gentiles were idolatrous God gave them over to a debased mind of homosexuality. However, I believe that Paul was saying the following:
"Since the Gentiles did not retain God in their knowledge God gave them over to a debased mind. The debased mind is NOT homosexuality but a mind that is centered on unrighteousness, hence the listing of what the Gentile mind is full of in verse 29.
29-32 This list of "unrighteousness" is being applied to all Gentiles, not Gentiles that commit homosexual sex acts. It is the Gentiles "who are worthy of death." These verses are really just an exposition of verse 18.
26-27 Another interesting point to consider is that people often use verses 26-27 to prove that Paul used an argument from "nature" to prove that homosexual activity was wrong. However that kind of usage of the word "nature" is highly unlikely as Paul usually uses the word "nature" or "natural" to mean not what "Mother Nature" does but instead he means "the previously accepted common usage". Nature is not a great teacher about ethics and humans are nowhere called in scripture to emulate it. What is more, homosexual activity DOES go on in the animal world.


JESUS Himself defined lawful marriage in God's eyes:

Mat 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and the two shall be one flesh?​

Gen 2:23-24 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Notice there's NO room given for man and man? Woman with woman? No HE and HE? No She and her?
JESUS defined lawful sexual unions, Paul merely reiterated the standard.
Always remember, HOMOSEXUALITY WAS NOT AN ISSUE OF THEIR DAY in Israel! Homosexuality was NOT a typical lifestyle and it wasn't hotly contested as it is today here.

Show me in the Bible where Jesus condemned slavery? Everything has to be taken into account w/it's historial context. Where does Paul address the issues of gay marriage that we have today or in Revelation? Where did Jesus talk about homosexuality? Where does it say what marriage isn't? (man and man, woman and woman) Where did they condemn loving, monogamous same-sex relationships? They weren't recognized till the 19th century, so of course, the Bible doesn't talk about that...homosexuals are in a small minority of the population.

The upshot is, homosexuality IS SINFUL - it's unlawful union in the eyes of GOD because God made the prototype at the beginning of creation: male and female, (and HE SAYS) FOR that very reason, they are to become one union. Not 2 men, not 2 women.

That is the prototype, but lots of God's plans have been distorted with sin creating birth defects, and abnormalties. Where is God's prototype of one to be born w/both sex organs, and plan for someone to be born with one eye or handicapped in a wheelchair?

By the way, maybe you can show me in the Bible where all the many Gay examples of Christians & OT saints that were GAY who led the people??? If it was SO lawful & common, there will SURELY be many Godly gay examples
of elders, shepherds, priests, prophets & teachers in our bible that display God's pleasure with homosexuality.

I'll wait for your verse examples for us.

I'm still waiting for the verses of a same sex, loving monogamous relationship condemned by Jesus or any of the other Apostles. I am waiting for an example of homosexuality without:

a)pagan worship and orgies (Romans 1)

b) rape (Sodom and Gomorrah) Aphrodites was the prevailing god of the time, roleplaying w/natural being the USUAL use of them being straight. Paul also said it was shameful for a man to have long hair.

c)unbiased translations, 1 Corinthians is the weakest argument since the translation of "homosexual offender" is not what the word really means. It was said to be meant "masturbation" by the early church Fathers, and the best of scholars don't even know what it means. (arsenkoitas)

d) Where does Jesus talk about homosexuality? clearly it wasn't an issue back then, as it wasn't recognized till the 19th century

e) a solution to gay freedom besides "reparative therapy" which is condemend by EVERY SINGLE credible mental health foundation in America, which causes suicide and depression rates to increase hugely. Ask that same thing about alcoholism, and you will get another answer. It is clear. it is irreversible, and the testimonials are probably from people who are bisexual to begin with or are confused. "The vast majority of our participants will still 'struggle' with same sex attraction their whole lives". LOLOLOL! yeah, what a healing, and why? Don't even get me started on what I would like to do to these "repair groups".

f) Where does Paul talk about homosexual attraction and not just lust? There is a distinction.

g) Where does Paul talk about people being born gay, and that innate attraction that even Exodus International talks about?

h) Where does the Bible say what marriage "isn't"?
It doesn't say "man cannot join with man in marriage", they had no need for that as they didn't even know about loving relationships then.


Safely, loving, monogamous, homosexual acts are NOT condemned....hence the UCC churches and Gay Pentecostal Churches...
the only safe haven for Gay Christians. Like all other Conservative Christians, it's a pick and choose with which context we speak.

Again, it's all about historical context:
Titus 2:9

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them..."



1 Peter 2:18

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."
 
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StTherese

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I'm still waiting for the verses of a same sex, loving monogamous relationship condemned by Jesus or any of the other Apostles. I am waiting for an example of homosexuality without:

a)pagan worship
b) rape (Sodom and Gomorrah)
c)unbiased translations, 1 Corinthians is the weakest argument since the translation of "homosexual offender" is not what the word really means. It was said to be meant "masturbation" by the early church Fathers, and the best of scholars don't even know what it means. (arsenkoitas)
d) Where does Jesus talk about homosexuality? clearly it wasn't an issue back then, as it wasn't recognized till the 19th century
e) a solution to gay freedom besides "reparative therapy" which is condemend by EVERY SINGLE credible mental health foundation in America, whcih causes suicide rates to increase hugely. Ask that same thing about alcoholism, and you will get another answer. It is clear. it is irreversible.
f) Where does Paul talk about homosexual attraction and not just lust? There is a distinction.
g) Where does Paul talk about people being born gay, and that innate attraction that even Exodus International talks about?
h) Where does the Bible say what marriage "isn't"?
It doesn't say "man cannot join with man in marriage", they had no need for that as they didn't even know about loving relationships then.
While you are waiting...could you show me where in scripture is says that everything must be layed out in scripture...or that the scriptures are the only authority???

Nevermind...that is another thread.
 
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davedjy

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While you are waiting...could you show me where in scripture is says that everything must be layed out in scripture...or that the scriptures are the only authority???

Nevermind...that is another thread.
Everything must be laid out in Scripture...except for things like pornography, which was not around at the time.
As a Protestant Christian, I believe that the Bible is the ONLY source of truth, we do not hold traditions to the same level as the Bible, like you do as a Roman Catholic.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Why do you think it isn't?
Because I don't think a loving and benign God would deliberately set people up to fail by making it so that the ONLY way they can experience the fundamental human condition of romantic love, the ONLY way they can have the mutual caring, supporting relationship you get from being in a partnership, would be worthy of damnation.

Further, its about the only sin that isn't logical. All the others are either sins against others, sins against the self, or sins against God... but homosexuality is a matter of consenting adults doing what comes naturally,. It doesnt harm ANYONE.
 
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