Homosexuality

[IamAdopted]

Uh, no it doesn't. Someone may have told you it did, but it doesn't. It DOES say in Ezekiel why Soddom and Gommorah were destroyed... because of "abominations" and because they were poor hosts to visitors. But like I keep trying to tell you, there are LOTS of things called "abomination" in Leviticus, so how do you know which one Soddom bought it for?

Like I said read about them in Genesis. This will explain a lot to you about this.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Like I said read about them in Genesis. This will explain a lot to you about this.

Please, to avoid confusion, why don't you cut and past the exact passage from Genesis to which you refer?

 

[IamAdopted]

I hate circular arguments. However, I STILL don't understand why the Levitical injunction against homosexuaklity still holds, while we seem happy to discard so many other Levitical Laws.I'm not trying to be obtuse, i just think Paul is over rated, thats all.

yes, inspired and guided... BUT still human, and therefore, still fallible... I continue to support the argument that God, being perfect, would not dictate an imperfect work. If the Bible were perfect, it would not be possible to misread, misrepresent, misunderstand, or misenterpret it. Yet here we are...See above... I think there is a reason we talk about "inspired" and "guided" by the Holy spirit... rather than "possessed by" or "avatar of"... yes, I believe that ALL writings in the Bible are INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit, but I still maintain that they were subject to influence by the mere weak human vessel element of the conduit between God and us.With the best will in the world, there are elements withIN the Bible that many people consider to be theologically incoherent when compared one to another... but thats a different discussion for a different time

Not just human.. Just as God spoke through the Prophets of old He speaks through His Apostles.. This is what Jesus promised them the Power of the Holy Spirit for.. Paul being one of the Apostles had the Power of The Holy Spirit..For scripture has not come from the Wisdom of man But from God. So when Paul speaks he does not speak of his own wisdom but from the wisdom of God..

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Just as God spoke through the Prophets of old He speaks through His Apostles..

OK, so, explain errors and inaccuracies in the books of the old prophets if they were the words of God direct?

Paul being one of the Apostles had the Power of The Holy Spirit

Is Paul generally considered an Apostle?

For scripture has not come from the Wisdom of man But from God

yes, but see what I said about it being effected by the men it passes through. If it were the unaltered, direct word of God, it would be very different.

So, ya gunna quote the Genesis bit that says specifically why Soddom was destroyed?

 

[intricatic]

I hate circular arguments. However, I STILL don't understand why the Levitical injunction against homosexuaklity still holds, while we seem happy to discard so many other Levitical Laws.I'm not trying to be obtuse, i just think Paul is over rated, thats all.

Have you done much study into cultural anthropology? If not, I'd suggest doing so - it's actually incredibly interesting, but it gives some insights into why some of the things in the Bible were crafted the way they were. It also makes the Bible come into a new light as a ridiculously interwoven collection of writings that all play off of eachother in various ways. That insight is what clarified to me the deal with sexual ethics in the OT / NT. The biggest component to it is the Hebrew curiosity of type and antitype.

yes, inspired and guided... BUT still human, and therefore, still fallible... I continue to support the argument that God, being perfect, would not dictate an imperfect work. If the Bible were perfect, it would not be possible to misread, misrepresent, misunderstand, or misenterpret it. Yet here we are...

The Bible itself could be a perfectly constructed and manifest work of Divine guidance, but we are still fallible people reading it. Otherwise there would be no use in education.

Good quote on the topic;

Anyone who is honestly trying to be a Christian will soon find his intelligence sharpened: one of the reasons why it needs no special education to be a Christian is that Christianity is an education itself. That is why an uneducated believer like Bunyan was able to write a book that has astonished the whole world.
- C.S. Lewis

See above... I think there is a reason we talk about "inspired" and "guided" by the Holy spirit... rather than "possessed by" or "avatar of"... yes, I believe that ALL writings in the Bible are INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit, but I still maintain that they were subject to influence by the mere weak human vessel element of the conduit between God and us.

I can see where you're coming from, but I generally consider God to be far more "In Control" of the world at large than that would imply. Just look at the story of Joseph's captivity in Egypt. I don't think that was all coincidence, but I don't think it was an infringement on human free-will either.

With the best will in the world, there are elements withIN the Bible that many people consider to be theologically incoherent when compared one to another... but thats a different discussion for a different time

I'm well aware of that. Generally speaking, I think that has to do with misplaced focus 9 times out of 10.

 

[IamAdopted]

OK, so, explain errors and inaccuracies in the books of the old prophets if they were the words of God direct?Is Paul generally considered an Apostle?yes, but see what I said about it being effected by the men it passes through. If it were the unaltered, direct word of God, it would be very different.

So, ya gunna quote the Genesis bit that says specifically why Soddom was destroyed?

You can read the scripture for yourself. Genesis has the account of it. I am not going to post pages and pages of scripture.. God is not a man that He changes. God hates Sin.. Sin brings out the wrath of God.. You can say all you want about homosexuality not being sin. But God calls it an abomination towards Him.. Jesus came to ransom Sinners not change the law.. He came and He fulfilled the law so that we in Him and Him in us can put to death the Lust of the Flesh. Not continue on in sin. Not to say that now Jesus has come there is no more sin..

 

[IamAdopted]

You can read the scripture for yourself. Genesis has the account of it. I am not going to post pages and pages of scripture.. God is not a man that He changes. God hates Sin.. Sin brings out the wrath of God.. You can say all you want about homosexuality not being sin. But God calls it an abomination towards Him.. Jesus came to ransom Sinners not change the law.. He came and He fulfilled the law so that we in Him and Him in us can put to death the Lust of the Flesh. Not continue on in sin. Not to say that now Jesus has come there is no more sin..

Show me what you are talking about with this statement.

explain errors and inaccuracies

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Have you done much study into cultural anthropology?

Many hours... hence my assertion that OT laws are a guide book for survival written for a pre-literate, pre-scientific, semi nomadic, bronze age, desert dwelling culture. In THAT light, every word of the OT makes perfect sense. However, to try to transfer the cultural guidbook of THAT culture to ANY OTHER culture, is going to produce difficulties. ESPECIALLY a culture as different as our Urbanised Western one.

To read the Bible, accept the most basic interpretation derived from a perfunctary first reading, or, more likely in most cases, to accept the bits SOMEONE ELSE has read to you, with whatever agenda in play they may have, well, I just don't think yer getting the full story.

IF (HUGE if) you read the Bible yourself, AND study the culture it was written for AND study the dynamics of how the Bible as we know it was passed on to us today AND study the inherent differences between the various cultures it has passed through on the way AND are aware of the various agendas of those involved in its transmission... after all that, i will respect your conclusions, although I still may not agree with them.

Intricatic dear, that is the case with you, I can see you have spent a vast amount of time studying the Bible and associated material, and I KNOW that when you talk about it, you aren't basing your comments on a semi understood first reading and trying to support a priori understandings, so I have a lot of time for you.

People who expect me to consider myself somehow defective because Leviticus says "homosexuality is bad" right before it says "4 legged birds are bad", and NOT get challenged on the logic underlying... well, them I have less time for.

The Bible itself could be a perfectly constructed and manifest work of Divine guidance, but we are still fallible people reading it. Otherwise there would be no use in education.

hmmm, agree to disagree? I don't think a "perfect" work can be misunderstood, because the ability to be misunderstood is a flaw...

I can see where you're coming from, but I generally consider God to be far more "In Control" of the world at large than that would imply. J

I believe God has the power to directly control our day to day lives in accordance with a greater plan, however I also believe that he chooses not to, almost completely.

Now we COULD Segway into the Calvinist... "yes we have free choice, but all our free choices are pre determined from the initial instant", but thats a WHOLE other topic.

PS, I note the marked absence of IamAdopted with the quote that clearly and explicitly explains why Soddom is destroyed

 

[EnemyPartyII]

explain errors and inaccuracies

you don't know the huge list of Biblically contradictory, self contradictory and just plain wrong OT prophecies? Or you don't know about the self contradictions within the Bible, and the factual and scientific errors therein?

Its pretty obvious you now know that, in fact there ISN'T a clear explanation in Genesis for the destruction of soddom, I assume thats where you have been, looking for one?

 

[intricatic]

Many hours... hence my assertion that OT laws are a guide book for survival written for a pre-literate, pre-scientific, semi nomadic, bronze age, desert dwelling culture. In THAT light, every word of the OT makes perfect sense. However, to try to transfer the cultural guidbook of THAT culture to ANY OTHER culture, is going to produce difficulties. ESPECIALLY a culture as different as our Urbanised Western one.

To read the Bible, accept the most basic interpretation derived from a perfunctary first reading, or, more likely in most cases, to accept the bits SOMEONE ELSE has read to you, with whatever agenda in play they may have, well, I just don't think yer getting the full story.

IF (HUGE if) you read the Bible yourself, AND study the culture it was written for AND study the dynamics of how the Bible as we know it was passed on to us today AND study the inherent differences between the various cultures it has passed through on the way AND are aware of the various agendas of those involved in its transmission... after all that, i will respect your conclusions, although I still may not agree with them.

Intricatic dear, that is the case with you, I can see you have spent a vast amount of time studying the Bible and associated material, and I KNOW that when you talk about it, you aren't basing your comments on a semi understood first reading and trying to support a priori understandings, so I have a lot of time for you.

People who expect me to consider myself somehow defective because Leviticus says "homosexuality is bad" right before it says "4 legged birds are bad", and NOT get challenged on the logic underlying... well, them I have less time for.

Well, just don't get the wrong impression. I'm not saying anything as a personal attack and I don't mean anything to come off that way. I guess that's kind of an oddity in this forum.

hmmm, agree to disagree? I don't think a "perfect" work can be misunderstood, because the ability to be misunderstood is a flaw...

A flaw in the text, or a flaw in the reader?

I believe God has the power to directly control our day to day lives in accordance with a greater plan, however I also believe that he chooses not to, almost completely.

I hate to say it, but I see it in a synthesized form of the two terms - predestination, or God's sovereignty over life, and human free will. I think both terms actually work together absolutely. In other words, we have absolute free-will, but God still has absolute sovereignty over His creation. I've used the analogy of a clock before and I'll probably use it again, but I see it like a clock that was designed absolutely perfectly, so it kept perfect time, but yet every part was absolutely free. That's one paradox I still have trouble figuring out, but it seems to answer a lot of questions for me.

Now we COULD Segway into the Calvinist... "yes we have free choice, but all our free choices are pre determined from the initial instant", but thats a WHOLE other topic.

Yeah, and one I ironically disagree with (Calvinism).

PS, I note the marked absence of IamAdopted with the quote that clearly and explicitly explains why Soddom is destroyed.

That's because things in the Bible are never so simple that they can be summed up quickly. Unless they're things that are either overly-simplified, or totally misunderstood.

 

[MercuryAndy]

I find myself quite torn by this whole topic. On the one hand, I have dear friends and relatives who are gay. I do not condemn them or hate them. On the other hand, I am uncomfortable with the idea of an actively gay person as a member of the clergy. So I'm just gonna leave it all up to God.

Why? As long he isnt a pedofile or a rapist.

 

[StTherese]

Why? As long he isnt a pedofile or a rapist.

We should not be "comfortable" with sin...and homosexual acts are sinful as much as rape and pedofilia!

 

[intricatic]

Anyhow, I gots to run off to work. I think I'm already late.

Thanks for a fun discussion.

6 The voice said, “Cry out!”
And he said, “What shall I cry?”
“ All flesh is grass,
And all its loveliness is like the flower of the field.
7 The grass withers, the flower fades,
Because the breath of the LORD blows upon it;
Surely the people are grass.
8 The grass withers, the flower fades,
But the word of our God stands forever.”
(Isaiah 40)

 

[intricatic]

you don't know the huge list of Biblically contradictory, self contradictory and just plain wrong OT prophecies?

Whoa, whoa whoa. Back up the prophecy horse here.

Biblical contradictions, self contradictory things, etc.. I've confronted and would rather not deal with because it gives me the same sort of headache as complex math does, but "...plain wrong OT prophecies" ?

Or is that a topic that'll end up giving me a migraine, too?

 

[MercuryAndy]

We should not be "comfortable" with sin...and homosexual acts are sinful as much as rape and pedofilia!

so pushing in front of someone is as bad as killing someone and flushing their body down the toilet?

 

[StTherese]

OK, so, explain errors and inaccuracies in the books of the old prophets if they were the words of God direct?

There are no errors or inaccuracies in the Bible...only people's misinterpretations of what it is saying! It must be read in light of the Spirit in which it was written.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'm not saying anything as a personal attack and I don't mean anything to come off that way.

I've never taken anything you say as a personal attack, which is one of the ways I know when I AM being attacked, because you and people like you, prove that it is possible to differ in opinion or conclusion without trying to make the other person feel bad.

A flaw in the text, or a flaw in the reader?

A PERFECT text would compensate for any possible flaw in any possible reader

In other words, we have absolute free-will, but God still has absolute sovereignty over His creation.

we agree on the term "paradox"

Unless they're things that are either overly-simplified, or totally misunderstood.

like most people's attempt to demonstrate biblically that homosexuality is sinful...

 

[EnemyPartyII]

There are no errors or inaccuracies in the Bible

4 legged birds. You loose.

 

[StTherese]

so pushing in front of someone is as bad as killing someone and flushing their body down the toilet?

You can not compare homosexual acts with pushing in front of someone. The first is a grave matter, the second isn't (generally). I do believe there are different gravities of sins. There are mortal sins and venial sins. Mortal sins deprive us of sanctifying grace, and can result in the loss of salvation. Homosexual acts are sins of a very serious matter. But, for one to commit a mortal sin there is also must be a complete consent and knowledge of the sin.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

but "...plain wrong OT prophecies" ?

I wouldn't usually refer to a website like this, but for brevity's sake and so you can get to work...

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html