Homosexuality

[WalkingforHim]

Where is the absolute proof that this is caused by genetics?

Where is the absolute proof that homosexuality is immoral in the eyes of God, and sorry, the Bible doesn't cut it.

that would be the tie if this was true. I am also not convinced that you cannot change your sexual orientation, I have heard of people that have converted.

Some can, most can. Don't believe, try changing yours, you'll see what it's like.

 

[davedjy]

Where is the absolute proof that homosexuality is immoral in the eyes of God, and sorry, the Bible doesn't cut it.

You don't have to believe in the Bible, you have your own free will. I am talking about Bible-based Christians who believe in the morality of the Bible. Nadiine gave proof it wasn't just talking about male prositution like everyone is saying.

Some can, most can. Don't believe, try changing yours, you'll see what it's like.

I am proof that I don't have to practice homosexuality, yes, I have had same sex attraction. You do realize that you were born, due to a heterosexual relationship? It is a natural, biological response.

 

[paladin_carvin]

You can change your 'orientation', or at least your activeness in persueing one or the other sex. I quite happily went from a heterosexual to a bisexual, once I got over silly notions of the 'evilness' of same-sex attraction. There is little doubt from the scientific evidence that there are inborn factors contributing to homosexuality, but to say anyone doesn't have control over their own actions is merely an excuse. And as far as I've seen, the thought that any person couldn't match up happily with some person of EITHER sex is farfetched. That aside, I have yet to see good Biblical evidence that same-sex love is wrong (PLEASE don't go into a stretch of all 6 verses mentioning homosexuality, this has been argued to death in so many threads, I already know each one and you won't be any more convincing than anyone else), and thus, I say, however a person finds love is righteous.

 

[davedjy]

You can change your 'orientation', or at least your activeness in persueing one or the other sex. I quite happily went from a heterosexual to a bisexual, once I got over silly notions of the 'evilness' of same-sex attraction. There is little doubt from the scientific evidence that there are inborn factors contributing to homosexuality, but to say anyone doesn't have control over their own actions is merely an excuse. And as far as I've seen, the thought that any person couldn't match up happily with some person of EITHER sex is farfetched. That aside, I have yet to see good Biblical evidence that same-sex love is wrong (PLEASE don't go into a stretch of all 6 verses mentioning homosexuality, this has been argued to death in so many threads, I already know each one and you won't be any more convincing than anyone else), and thus, I say, however a person finds love is righteous.

What made you discount the evidence that is in the Bible? Even though you have justified it out in your mind and your life, are you certain God doesn't have an issue with it?

 

[paladin_carvin]

What made you discount the evidence that is in the Bible? Even though you have justified it out in your mind and your life, are you certain God doesn't have an issue with it?

Yea, I'm certain. First, I'm not discounting the 'evidence that is in the Bible'- I'm discounting the modern interpretation of it. But secondly, I went about looking at it with reason and prayer and openness, and it comes to be, quite plainly, that homosexual love is not wrong. Furthermore, I find the idea of homosexuality being sinful being completely incompatible with Jesus Christ as I know him through my personal relationship. In addition, I simply would not believe in a God that is so backwards and foolish as to conceive homosexuality as a sin against him. My Lord is not so pathetic as to make up arbitrary and silly laws.

 

[fevoldj2]

Where is the absolute proof that this is caused by genetics? that would be the tie if this was true. I am also not convinced that you cannot change your sexual orientation, I have heard of people that have converted.

I have heard of people doing all sorts of things when people won't leave them alone. For an extreme example: If someone is held at gunpoint, and they are asked a question, he or she will most likely answer in a way that will please the person holding him or her at gunpoint. If someone is bothered for his entire life, he will do anything to get some peace. Many of these "converts" have later stated that they still have sexual attraction to the same sex. Btw: Do you think psycological tricks are moral if they "cure" someone of homosexuality?

 

[savedfromdistruction]

According to scriptrue homosexuality is sin.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Sin is a choice to do something ones own way. God has promised not to allow us to be tempted above whhat we can stand.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Homosexuality is a choice in every case since it is sin in every case. It is a sin like any sin thhat can be overcome if thhe person will turn to God with all their heart by placing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[ScottBot]

No, they are a homosexual, just as I was always a heterosexual before I had sex.

These lies and distortions can not be allowed to stand unchallanged by the truth and facts.

I agree, and I am working as hard as I can to dispell the myths.

 

[ScottBot]

What made you discount the evidence that is in the Bible? Even though you have justified it out in your mind and your life, are you certain God doesn't have an issue with it?

Exactly, how exactly are we supposed to have a discussion of homosexuality within the Christian Ethics section of this site and not bring biblical morality into the mix? If you all want to talk about the good, bad, and the ugly of the homosexual ethos, I suggest we request this thread be moved to a NON-CHRISTIAN part of the forum.

 

[yodafett]

I too am a christian, and homosexuals do not choose their sin I know this because I have homosexual friends and you can't tell me they chose it because it upsets them, and causes them stress. They did not choose something. Trying to convince me of that is like trying to tell a black guy he's not black.

Do you think there aren't alcoholics who aren't stressed and upset by the sin of alcoholism? Are there some factors that science says contributes? Yes. Does that mean there isnt' a choice? No. Same for Pornography. The temptation may be ingrained, but it all boils down to choice.

First, I'm not discounting the 'evidence that is in the Bible'- I'm discounting the modern interpretation of it.

So then historically speaking, it's been accepted by the church, and we're only now saying it's a sin? Do you have any proof of this theory?

I find the idea of homosexuality being sinful being completely incompatible with Jesus Christ as I know him through my personal relationship.

In addition, I simply would not believe in a God that is so backwards and foolish as to conceive homosexuality as a sin against him.

Just because you wouldn't believe in Him, doesn't change Him. What we decide is right or righteous doesn't matter so much as what IS righteous, according to His character. How many people refuse to believe in a God that won't let them into heaven if they're "good peope", even if they reject him?

My Lord is not so pathetic as to make up arbitrary and silly laws.

I agree. But just because some find it sill or arbitrary doesn't mean it's not still a sin.

 

[*Starlight*]

Exactly, how exactly are we supposed to have a discussion of homosexuality within the Christian Ethics section of this site and not bring biblical morality into the mix? If you all want to talk about the good, bad, and the ugly of the homosexual ethos, I suggest we request this thread be moved to a NON-CHRISTIAN part of the forum.

The problem with the fragments of the Bible which may appear to condemn homosexuality is that they can be interpreted in different ways, especially when you take the historical and cultural context into account... that's why I think the only way to determine the morality of homosexuality is by looking outside the Bible, without any preconceptions...and when I look at the idea of homosexuality without any preconceptions, I only see two people of the same gender who fall in love with each other... I don't see anything bad about that.

By the way, there's no non-Christian part of CF... there's only a Nicene Creed Christian part, and a part open to everyone...

 

[ScottBot]

The problem with the fragments of the Bible which may appear to condemn homosexuality is that they can be interpreted in different ways, especially when you take the historical and cultural context into account... that's why I think the only way to determine the morality of homosexuality is by looking outside the Bible, without any preconceptions...and when I look at the idea of homosexuality without any preconceptions, I only see two people of the same gender who fall in love with each other... I don't see anything bad about that.

By the way, there's no non-Christian part of CF... there's only a Nicene Creed Christian part, and a part open to everyone...

Sorry hon, that's a ideology known as post-modernism and is incompatible with orthodox, traditional, historical Christianity.

 

[yodafett]

There are multiple sub forums in the Open to everyone sections that specify Non-Christian.

 

[*Starlight*]

Sorry hon, that's a ideology known as post-modernism and is incompatible with orthodox, traditional, historical Christianity.

Maybe that's true, but not all Christianity is "orthodox, traditional and historical". Personally, I'm more or less a post-modern Christian

 

[yodafett]

The problem with the fragments of the Bible which may appear to condemn homosexuality is that they can be interpreted in different ways, especially when you take the historical and cultural context into account...

Romans 1:26-27 KJV
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

or NIV is that is preferred
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

And NASB, just for comparison
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Roman's 1:27
I don't speek ancient greek first hand, but according to Strong's, greek words used for "men" through the whole verse are

αρρσην and αρσην
male (as stronger for lifting): - male, man.

and the word used for lust was
orexis
excitement of the mind, that is, longing after: - lust.

And the word for another
ἀλλήλων
one another. : - each other, mutual, one another, (the other), (them-, your-) selves, (selves) together

Males longing after other males. How can that be misunderstood?

How do you say that this is misinterpreted? As for historic and cultural context, can you show that homosexuality was ever accepted by the church?

that's why I think the only way to determine the morality of homosexuality is by looking outside the Bible, without any preconceptions...

Looking for a moral base anywhere but scrpiture is just asking to be led astray. Isn't that what the devil delights in, telling us that the word of God isn't good enough? That's what led to the Fall.

 

[yodafett]

Personally, I'm more or less a post-modern Christian

How well does that fit with scripture?

 

[*Starlight*]

How well does that fit with scripture?

I'm not sure Post-modernism didn't exist when the Bible was written, I think...

As for the passage you posted before, I've read about a very convincing interpretation that it's a description of a ritual sex in some pagan temples... if you want, I'll try to find something about it in Google

 

[yodafett]

I'm not sure Post-modernism didn't exist when the Bible was written, I think...

But the Bible does speak to mindset and how it stands up to other beliefs.

As for the passage you posted before, I've read about a very convincing interpretation that it's a description of a ritual sex in some pagan temples... if you want, I'll try to find something about it in Google

I'm still not sure how that would affect the statement that in verse 26, it is called "shameful lust", "vile affections", and "degrading passions", in direct relation to the same sex desires. Whether it was in a temple or not, how does that affect the adjectives that describe the desire?

 

[*Starlight*]

But the Bible does speak to mindset and how it stands up to other beliefs.

Yes, but the Bible can be viewed in many different ways...

I'm still not sure how that would affect the statement that in verse 26, it is called "shameful lust", "vile affections", and "degrading passions", in direct relation to the same sex desires. Whether it was in a temple or not, how does that affect the adjectives that describe the desire?

Well, it says that what the people did was unnatural for them... so it means that these were heterosexuals who had ritual homosexual sex because that's how they worshipped the pagan gods... so I can see why that can be considered shameful. There are similar things today... people doing things just because they believe that God wants them to do it. It's a very similar situation... but I don't really know, I'm not a Bible scholar, so maybe it was something different

 

[ScottBot]

How well does that fit with scripture?

It doesn't. In orthodox, historical, tradition Christianity, Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life.

In post-moderism, one's own intellect is the Way the Truth and the Life.