Homosexuality

[SuddenlyISee]

what a load of cr@p. We all have tempation to resist. The adultress is not condemned by Christ, but He does tell her to go out and SIN NO MORE. He doesn't forgive her then give her a pass to keep on doing what she was doing.

Valid point.

Quick question: Have you ever looked into why people on the other side of the fence are there? Maybe read an article about it? Don't answer that, just honestly think about it. If all you know is what you've been told up until this point, then you don't know enough. What I found is that this side of the fence makes much more sense historically and within the context of Jesus' teachings. I think that, although you might not change your opinion, you should give yourself the opportunity to at least understand where people are coming from. There is no lack of websites on the subject. A simple google search should offer you plenty of reading material.


I certainly hope you find the time to look into the homosexuality debate a little further. You never know where you might find Truth.

 

[gwdboi]

I didn't insult you, and I'd appreciate if you treated me with the same respect.

You DID insult me! I'm insulted that you think that the reason we (homosexuals) are gay is because it's "in". The thought disgusts me!

 

[ScottBot]

Valid point.

Quick question: Have you ever looked into why people on the other side of the fence are there? Maybe read an article about it? Don't answer that, just honestly think about it. If all you know is what you've been told up until this point, then you don't know enough. What I found is that this side of the fence makes much more sense historically and within the context of Jesus' teachings. I think that, although you might not change your opinion, you should give yourself the opportunity to at least understand where people are coming from. There is no lack of websites on the subject. A simple google search should offer you plenty of reading material.


I certainly hope you find the time to look into the homosexuality debate a little further. You never know where you might find Truth.

Of course I've look at the debate from all sides. My immediate family has 4 active homosexuals in it, so its not that I am insensitive to their plight. I myself have been and still am temped by sexual sin, both within and outside of my marriage. My family is inundated with alcoholism, and a similar arguement can be made for that challenge. Shouldn't we just tell acoholics to just accept what they are, drink and be happy without judgement? I am not anyone's judge, but I do know that within the orthodox, traditional Christian moral ethic, homosexuality is considered abberant. Should I change my paradigm and give credance to what I believe in my heart to be disordered behavior, regardless of my personal feelings and attachments to the people who have them?

 

[SuddenlyISee]

If it is on a personal basis, and thus relativistic in nature, why would someone be lusting after somethign that is unnatural to them? The very act of lusting would make it "natural" in that perspective, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily. Think about straight men in prison. Or straight women who had a bit too much to drink. I would say that natural homosexuality is not a sin, but choosing homosexuality is. On the other side of that coin, a homosexual who tries to fight it by being in heterosexual relationships is also sinning. That sin is one that is encouraged by the church and leaves many lives ruined in it's wake.

Why would verse 26 describe it as shameful (or vile or degrading, depending on translation)?

Romans 1:26
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

I'm still seeing the same thing here.

I'm not trying to hound you, I'm sorry if it seems that way. I too, admit that I don't have all the answers, and that I may find out when I face judgement that I was wrong, and I'm not persecuting anybody. I know I still sin, and that I've a sinful nature. I'm just trying to understand how so many people can think that the lifestyle isn't sinful when (as I understand it), scripture does speak to it.

Do a google search for "Bible and homosexuality" and take the time to really read and understand what most of the sites are saying. What changed my view (other than knowing that my cousin has always been gay and finding it very difficult to believe that God would make her that way and then condemn her for it) was that the pro-homosexuality (for lack of a better term) websites seemed more in line with Jesus' teachings than the anti ones. And, for the most part, they lay out their arguments very well. Well enough to leave someone who has always disagreed with them feeling very confused. That is how my research left me. Confused. So, I put aside my prejudices and prayed about it.

Your points about S&G are interesting and did raise some questions, thank you for pointing them out.

No prob.

SIS

 

[yodafett]

You DID insult me! I'm insulted that you think that the reason we (homosexuals) are gay is because it's "in". The thought disgusts me!

Please reread what I said, before you put words into my mouth and take what I said out of context.

I don't subscribe to the list of it IS a choice, or it ISN'T a choice as the deciding factor, but yes, I think some people DO choose that live style because of how it's portrayed in the media. It's become the "in" thing now. Just like how, in some twisted hollywood dream, that being oppressed is fashionable.

"some people"

I never said ALL homosexuals do it because it's fashinable. I never said gwdboi chooses it to fit in.

I said "I think". That's my opinion. I never said you were ignorant or clueless. I voiced my opinion, and gave supporting facts of why I thikn SOME people choose that LIFESTYLE. I never said that ALL people in that lifestyle knowingly choose it or that YOU chose it.

I don't know you, I didn't attack you. If what I said when I clearly stated what was my opinion offended you, then I apologize that it offended you. I thought it was pretty clear it was an opinion and not an attack or insult.

 

[SuddenlyISee]

Of course I've look at the debate from all sides. My immediate family has 4 active homosexuals in it, so its not that I am insensitive to their plight. I myself have been and still am temped by sexual sin, both within and outside of my marriage. My family is inundated with alcoholism, and a similar arguement can be made for that challenge. Shouldn't we just tell acoholics to just accept what they are, drink and be happy without judgement? I am not anyone's judge, but I do know that within the orthodox, traditional Christian moral ethic, homosexuality is considered abberant.

Alcoholism and drug use damages the people around you. Homosexuality does not belong in that category.

Orthodox and traditional Christian moral ethics have been wrong many, many times. Most people put their faith in Churchianity, which is what is being done when someone says something like what you are saying. "The church has always said it's wrong so it must be wrong." That isn't how it works. Whether we all like it or not, men started the church, men made the rules, men run the church. Men even controlled what did and did not go into the Bible and it was the opinions of men that guided the first translation. Although, I believe you that you have looked at it from all sides I tend to wonder how you could have browsed through the pages of a Christian homosexuality website and come to the conclusion you've come to. That is probably because I came to the opposite one, though. If you haven't been on any of those sites, do yourself a favor and go to some. Read them. They are not sites saying that you should be able to do whatever you want. Rather, they lay out pretty clearly what the Bible actually says about it.

Should I change my paradigm and give credance to what I believe in my heart to be disordered behavior, regardless of my personal feelings and attachments to the people who have them?

You should do what we all should do. Put aside what you believe in your heart, put aside what your pastor tells you, and genuinely study when you have a question. What you believe in your heart doesn't matter. Keep in mind that once upon a time it was the church who was against equal rights for black people. Pastors preached that black people were less than and they used scripture to do it. Were they right? Of course not. It was a gross misunderstanding of scripture combined with there own prejudices (beliefs in their heart) that led them to that conclusion. But that was the orthodox and traditional Christian morals and ethics. Nevertheless, it was wrong just like the stance against homosexuality is wrong.

 

[ScottBot]

Alcoholism and drug use damages the people around you. Homosexuality does not belong in that category.

Orthodox and traditional Christian moral ethics have been wrong many, many times. Most people put their faith in Churchianity, which is what is being done when someone says something like what you are saying. "The church has always said it's wrong so it must be wrong." That isn't how it works. Whether we all like it or not, men started the church, men made the rules, men run the church. Men even controlled what did and did not go into the Bible and it was the opinions of men that guided the first translation. Although, I believe you that you have looked at it from all sides I tend to wonder how you could have browsed through the pages of a Christian homosexuality website and come to the conclusion you've come to. That is probably because I came to the opposite one, though. If you haven't been on any of those sites, do yourself a favor and go to some. Read them. They are not sites saying that you should be able to do whatever you want. Rather, they lay out pretty clearly what the Bible actually says about it.



You should do what we all should do. Put aside what you believe in your heart, put aside what your pastor tells you, and genuinely study when you have a question. What you believe in your heart doesn't matter. Keep in mind that once upon a time it was the church who was against equal rights for black people. Pastors preached that black people were less than and they used scripture to do it. Were they right? Of course not. It was a gross misunderstanding of scripture combined with there own prejudices (beliefs in their heart) that led them to that conclusion. But that was the orthodox and traditional Christian morals and ethics. Nevertheless, it was wrong just like the stance against homosexuality is wrong.

In your opinion. My opinion tells me otherwise. I don't submit to post-modernism or relativism. They are the attitude which Christ considers lukewarm, and He will spew out of his mouth.

 

[GraceInHim]

Reminder

2.1 No Flaming

You will not "flame" other members or groups of members. Flaming includes, but is not limited to:
- Ridiculing, insulting, or demeaning another member or group of members;
- Ridiculing another member's beliefs;
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3.2 Obscene, Vulgar, Racist, Sexually Explicit
You will not make posts, that are obscene, vulgar, racist, sexually explicit or graphic, or illegal.

Peace
GIH

 

[SuddenlyISee]

In your opinion. My opinion tells me otherwise. I don't submit to post-modernism or relativism. They are the attitude which Christ considers lukewarm, and He will spew out of his mouth.

Fair enough. Take a moment, though, to consider the fact that Christ was a very modern thinker in His day and continually went against the orthodoxy of the "church". He was always on the other side of the fence from the religious leaders. Perhaps reaching an understanding beyond what has always been taught is, in fact, Christ-like and is therefore exactly what we as Christians should do. It is something we should study and pray about for ourselves, putting aside orthodoxy and unsavory terms like "relativism", until we no longer carry with us our own opinions but rather those of Christ. I have done the best I can in this area... I hope you have also.

Now... to go clean my house.

 

[ScottBot]

Fair enough. Take a moment, though, to consider the fact that Christ was a very modern thinker in His day and continually went against the orthodoxy of the "church". He was always on the other side of the fence from the religious leaders. Perhaps reaching an understanding beyond what has always been taught is, in fact, Christ-like and is therefore exactly what we as Christians should do. It is something we should study and pray about for ourselves, putting aside orthodoxy and unsavory terms like "relativism", until we no longer carry with us our own opinions but rather those of Christ. I have done the best I can in this area... I hope you have also.

Now... to go clean my house.

If Jesus Christ isn't orthodox in His theology, then everything upon which Christianity is build is akin to the house built upon the sand which is doomed to fall. Christ is the very epitome of orthodoxy, because every utterance of His lips was doctrine and the Word of Truth.

 

[SuddenlyISee]

If Jesus Christ isn't orthodox in His theology, then everything upon which Christianity is build is akin to the house built upon the sand which is doomed to fall. Christ is the very epitome of orthodoxy, because every utterance of His lips was doctrine and the Word of Truth.

Orthodox: of, pertaining to, or conforming to the approved form of any doctrine, philosophy, ideology, etc.


Jesus was not orthodox to the church of his day. He specifically went against the approved doctrine, as that is what He was there to do. And, in dining with prostitutes and tax collectors, He definately went against the ideology... even going so far as creating His own.

In the wake of Jesus' teachings a church was born which, in turn, began creating it's own orthodoxy and ideology in His name. Although the Truth is taught a fair amount of the time, it cannot be denied that men mess up the message quite a bit. It is up to us to find the Truth beyond the orthodoxy and ideology. It is up to us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling- even if that means we must disagree with the orthodox of the church, just as Jesus did in His day.

The Bible doesn't say to "listen to show yourself approved" or to "conform to show yourself approved". It says "STUDY to show yourself approved." If we believe something because of orthodoxy and ideology, if we believe something because that is what we've always been taught or because that is what the pastor says, it is time to study for ourselves and work out our own salvation. It is not the churches job to do that for us... they may think it is, but it is not.

Trusting the orthodox so much that we don't study material from a different viewpoint is a mistake... more than likely, a fatal one.

 

[ScottBot]

Orthodox: of, pertaining to, or conforming to the approved form of any doctrine, philosophy, ideology, etc.


Jesus was not orthodox to the church of his day. He specifically went against the approved doctrine, as that is what He was there to do. And, in dining with prostitutes and tax collectors, He definately went against the ideology... even going so far as creating His own.

In the wake of Jesus' teachings a church was born which, in turn, began creating it's own orthodoxy and ideology in His name. Although the Truth is taught a fair amount of the time, it cannot be denied that men mess up the message quite a bit. It is up to us to find the Truth beyond the orthodoxy and ideology. It is up to us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling- even if that means we must disagree with the orthodox of the church, just as Jesus did in His day.

The Bible doesn't say to "listen to show yourself approved" or to "conform to show yourself approved". It says "STUDY to show yourself approved." If we believe something because of orthodoxy and ideology, if we believe something because that is what we've always been taught or because that is what the pastor says, it is time to study for ourselves and work out our own salvation. It is not the churches job to do that for us... they may think it is, but it is not.

Trusting the orthodox so much that we don't study material from a different viewpoint is a mistake... more than likely, a fatal one.

Jesus Christ was not some progressive hippy. He is God.

Additionally, Christ did not rale against the dogmas of His day, He raled against the behavior of the people who corrupted the spirit of the Dogma for their personal benefit. Its why He called them hypocrites.

 

[SuddenlyISee]

Jesus Christ was not some progressive hippy. He is God.

Additionally, Christ did not rale against the dogmas of His day, He raled against the behavior of the people who corrupted the spirit of the Dogma for their personal benefit. Its why He called them hypocrites.

Not a hippy, but definately progressive. Today, Jesus would probably have the same complaints about most of our current religious leaders. Which is why I refuse to take their word as law and research things on my own.

I suppose it is time that you and I agree to disagree.

May God be with you.

SIS

 

[ScottBot]

Not a hippy, but definately progressive. Today, Jesus would probably have the same complaints about most of our current religious leaders. Which is why I refuse to take their word as law and research things on my own.

I suppose it is time that you and I agree to disagree.

May God be with you.

SIS

Good idea, since there is no way to know for sure.

 

[WalkingforHim]

A chaste person who does not act upon his or her desire isn't really a homosexual, but rather suffers the temptation of same-sex attraction.

No, they are a homosexual, just as I was always a heterosexual before I had sex.

These lies and distortions can not be allowed to stand unchallanged by the truth and facts.

 

[SoldierKG]

I understand the common day belief on this matter. Howevcer I am a Christian and hold to the teaching of the bible, not that of man. The bible teaches that we choose our sins. All homosexuals are in sin according to scripture. It offers no exceptions.

I too am a christian, and homosexuals do not choose their sin I know this because I have homosexual friends and you can't tell me they chose it because it upsets them, and causes them stress. They did not choose something. Trying to convince me of that is like trying to tell a black guy he's not black.

 

[davedjy]

I too am a christian, and homosexuals do not choose their sin I know this because I have homosexual friends and you can't tell me they chose it because it upsets them, and causes them stress. They did not choose something. Trying to convince me of that is like trying to tell a black guy he's not black.

Sexual preference is not anywhere near the same thing as one's ethnic group.

 

[WalkingforHim]

Sexual preference is not anywhere near the same thing as one's ethnic group.

There are many simularities between the two.

 

[gwdboi]

Sexual preference is not anywhere near the same thing as one's ethnic group.

It's close enough. You cannot change your ethnicity and you cannot change your sexual orientation.

 

[davedjy]

There are many simularities between the two.

It's close enough. You cannot change your ethnicity and you cannot change your sexual orientation.

Where is the absolute proof that this is caused by genetics? that would be the tie if this was true. I am also not convinced that you cannot change your sexual orientation, I have heard of people that have converted.