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Rdr Iakovos

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united4Peace said:
Scanning through these ....
Sexuality is something that one is born with.
God has made each person unique...
We are a gift...
Our sexuality is a gift which is why it is to be celebrated...celebrated in a healthy way..
through healthy relationships...marriage is one.

Sexuality isnt something to be put in a box...IMO.
Too many people on both sides try to stick sexuality in a box and insist that one has to be one way or another way...:sigh:
(I believe we fall in love with a person's soul...not with the outter shell)
I deeply concur with your last statement. I do wonder though if you give God the right to put sexuality in a box. Is it ok for Him to demand monogamy? Fidelity? Does He- or I- have the right and responsibility to tell my teenagers to keep their sexuality tightly wrapped in the box, and allow no one to even shake the box to see what gift is enclosed inside?

Passions are to be channeled and directed, not boxed. The urge to mate should be sublimated among those who are courting, and using the inherent drive to merge, the two should merge emotionally and spiritually before they merge physically. According to scripture, this bond is matrimony, which is reserved for one man and one woman.

As for secular marriage and cohabitation: not my concern, and none of my business. In fact, if the Episcopalians want to bless same sex unions, go for it.
I am not troubled by populist morality or trends. I am troubled that people justify their behavior by their felt needs. I am also troubled by those whose morality is capricious and situational, such as those who claim to be pro-life yet support the Iraq fiasco and capital punishment.

I guess I'm a square peg in a dodecahedron shaped era
 
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djbcrawford

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united4Peace said:
Scanning through these ....
Sexuality is something that one is born with.
God has made each person unique...
We are a gift...
Our sexuality is a gift which is why it is to be celebrated...celebrated in a healthy way..
through healthy relationships...marriage is one.

Sexuality isnt something to be put in a box...IMO.
Too many people on both sides try to stick sexuality in a box and insist that one has to be one way or another way...:sigh:
(I believe we fall in love with a person's soul...not with the outter shell)

We are born with lots of things. Bad temper, selfishness, lust. While we are born unique with individual gifts and abilities, we are also born with defects and flaws. When we turn to God, he can polish our good points and help remove our bad ones.

For whatever reason, God (if you believe the bible) says the act is wrong. All that is allowed for same sex couples is a strong friendship. All the nice sounding sentiment can't get past this or the fact that we are biologically two sexs.

20th Century society has made sexual love a god. Everyone has been encouraged to explore their sexual feelings. Sex is everywhere and has become a right. What has this lead to? Marriage breakdowns, a multitude of single parent families, disease, crime and poverty. We like to think we're grown ups who can handle freedom and rights, but we're not, we're just children. God's law are there to protect us.
 
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DaveS

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You are still comparing apples to oranges in three ways:

Eating the animals did not deserve the death penalty like the act of homosexuality.

Read the Scripture again. The "act" of eating these is not detestable or an abomination but the "them" are to be detested and the "anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales". This is different than "both of them have committed an abomination" Lev 20:13

Also, the word for abomination of a filthy animal is not the same as the abomination for the act of homosexuality. The word used for lobsters is shequets and it means filthy. The animal itself is filthy, not the act of eating it. The abomination for homosexuality is towebah and it means morally disgusting. In the Septuagint (LXX) it has the Greek meaning of a feeling of nausea, to make feel sick in the stomach.

Therefore, the Scriptures teach that certain animals are filthy and souldn't be eaten but the act of homosexuality makes God feel nauseous and He will kill all gays on Judgment Day.

Errr... if you eat something that is an abomination then surely the act is an abomination also?
That's like saying that a pedophile is an abomination but when he/she spreads this on to others then it is perfectly fine.

It doesn't matter anyway because the eating of certain things can not be one of these so-called 'ceremonial' laws which don't count anyway - is it moral? If so, why do we ignore it?

You know, when you bring up causing harm, you're just opening a huge can of worms, but I'll avoid getting into that out of respect for the subject.

Just because a thing may or may not cause harm, does not make it right. However, saying that homosexuals have less abusive relationships than heterosexuals is a smoke-screen, unless you can demonstrate the validity of the statement, it's worthless, although it really doesn't matter to begin with unless it can be demonstrated that homosexuality is not a neurochemical association that can be altered over time like other elements of neurophysiology.

It is just a fact that I have seen many homosexual couples more happy and commited than heterosexual, I am not claiming that every other case is as such. I am just stating what I have seen.

Homosexuality is clearly a moral act. The word abomination used for homosexuality is of a moral nature as Strongs defines "8441 tow`ebah or tonebah {to-ay-baw'}; feminine active participle of 8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), "

Yeah, I know. However, I am pointing out the oddity of picking our this particular law form leviticus and ignoring others which may well actually be counted as 'moral law'. You cannot pick and choose which law carries through at your own discretion, what about those which don't quite fit?

Being born gay, if this in fact is the source of homosexual desire, is to be born like any other heterosexual. By that I mean, we all have urges and desires that we either bring into submission, or we give in and indulge. We are all sexual creatures in one respect or another.

Holy scripture, New Testament and Old, clearly teach me that there is one acceptable outlet for my sexual being: marriage. Marriage is specifically described between a man and a woman, beginning in Gensis, confirmed by Jesus and Paul.

Shacking up, fornication, and any type of premarital sex are each grave violations of God's design for the expression of human sexuality. Philandering heterosexuals are no less sinful than philandering homosexuals.

Scripture gives one option to the unmarried, which includes homosexuals: Chastity and abstinence.

I would have no issue whatsoever having a homosexual priest who was/is chaste. I would find it unacceptable to have a priest who fornicated, including through committed homosexual relationship.

Though I do not and will not believe that homosexuals should be ordained or married in the Church, I fully support their right to a secular union. Biblical morality is NOT to be imposed on the world- only upon the Church.

Fair enough. :) I do think that one can have a commited homoexual relationship with abstinence though, I know of a couple that have never slept together but still love eachother and support eachother in the other ways as would be expected of a marriage.
I am personally undecided on sex within a gay secular union although in this case it shouldn't be given more weight than sex within a heterosexual secular union. Fornication is fornication.
As far as religious homosexual union... I think it is fair that a chaste union should be allowed so that God knows two people are commited to eachother in a loving (storge etc) way but not strictly by Eros. Similar to the (lets assume) brotherly way that David and Jonathan were joined 'as one spirit' in the OT.

Gambling is different from a competitive game. Besides, since Pride can be sinful, you are saving them from it. :D

How is gambling different to a competitive game? Is it because there is an element of luck? That can hardly be why it is so terribly wrong.

Because this thread is about whether or not the act is sinful. Repenting of sin means not wanting to do it again. If the act is sinful, then repentence must mean a change in direction.

But if you can't change direction...

It doesn't matter if their feelings are different or not. This discussion is about whether the act is wrong. My reasons were 1) biblical and 2) biological. If you were married and your wife was in a terrible accident which meant you could never have make love to her again would you love her any less. The act is different from the love.

How are we supposed to decide if a gay person lusts instead of loves? I think that is up to their own hearts and we should stop nosing in on their own business.

Do you think we should never identify an act as being wrong. A polititian takes a bribe - not my problem, an old woman is mugged - sorry, don't want to point the finger, a race of people is exterminated - well, it isn't really my business.

What use is a doctor who doesn't tell you smoking will kill you? Who are we helping by not pointing out something that is wrong? Are we not called to be the light of the world?

But not if you hurt the person you are trying to help. This is the essence of situational ethics where it all applies to each individual and cannot be brushed over an entire group of people. This is the mistake that is being made --- would you be happy to hear that you are going to rot in Hell because of something you cannot change?

For whatever reason, God (if you believe the bible) says the act is wrong. All that is allowed for same sex couples is a strong friendship. All the nice sounding sentiment can't get past this or the fact that we are biologically two sexs.

God only does things which make sense and has reason, hence why Jesus condemned the Pharisee's and ceremonial Laws. Maybe this should be how we should judge levitical Law.
 
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IisJustMe

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eastcoast_bsc said:
Well apparently cognitive bahavioural therapy is not too effective or you could provide evidence that you have patients/clients who where Homosexual and are now functioning Heterosexuals.
I'm not a counselor to those who practice homosexual behavior, and I don't recall saying I am. If I did, please feel free to point out where, so I can edit it, and apologize. I was responding to an incorrect statement about CBT, thank you.
eastcoast_bsc said:
I don't me those that lives of repression or whiteknuckling it.
I think I followed this sentence, but I'm not sure. But I'll address the "repression" and "whiteknuckling" comment. Its an assumption on your part -- and a grossly incorrect one -- that most ex-homosexuals are handling their recovery that way. Sorry to disappoint you, but that isn't the case for all of them. Some? Of course, just like alcoholics and addicts of other kinds. As I said in my post, no one said we weren't going to struggle with sin.
eastcoast_bsc said:
As for the rates of depression and suicide, mmm seems you want to quote statistics when it benefits you.
You mean to prove my statements? yeah, terribly inconvenient that is, but what else would you expect of someone who knows what he's talking about?
eastcoast_bsc said:
But alas, I am sure a lot of young Gay males might be depressed or suicidal because of the way society treats them. Just on this site alone, I have heard that Gays are going to burn for eternity in Hell and that they are sodomites. Do you see my point?
Yes, actually, I do, and I condemn the unholy treatment of people who practice homosexuality as much as I condemn the acts themselves. However, notice I did not say "condemn the ones who practice them." I have some good friends who have either come out of the homosexual lifestyle, or are still in it. Of the latter, I don't judge them and chastise them. If they want to talk about what the Bible says, I'm available, but I'm not qualified to counsel them. I'm an addictions and behaviors counselor -- I don't have my certification in sexual "orientation" and the sad part is, the psychologists and psychiatrists associations won't offer certification to help people turn away from homosexual practices.

Yet the majority of depression, suicidal thoughts, self-hatred or low self-esteem, and other personality and emotional disorders afflicting those who engage in homosexual practices are brought on by their own inner conviction, not their treatment by society. They live with themselves a lot more than they have to be confronted with hate-mongers, and even those they encounter, they can escape. Its difficult to get away from yourself.
eastcoast_bsc said:
I am sure I could go on as to the pressures that are put on young Gays, that could lead to destructive behaviours. I am also sure that I could find Literature from the APA that would support such statements.
Probably, but since they won't recognize the major cause of the emotional upheaval in those patients, they have to emphasize the secondary causes and label them "primary" out of political correctness.
eastcoast_bsc said:
But my poinstil is that there is no "Cure" for Homosexuality ...
Yes there is, and His name is Jesus Christ, the same as for all sin. And much as you want to deny it or work your way around it, homosexual activity is a sin, well-defined in both the Old and New Testaments.
eastcoast_bsc said:
... one is Gay for reasons that are beyond that individual and trying all the reparation therapies in the world are not going to change that fact.
The thousands who have left the practice and the lifestyle are the proof that you are kidding yourself, along with everyone else who thinks as you do. God loves everyone, sinners and saints alike, and He did not make anyone who is incapable of leaving their sin at the foot of the cross.

By the way, one of the great dangers of cruising the Internet trying to sound informed is that you dredge up terms like "reparation therapy" without knowing what it is (other than the gay activist web sites call it "bad") and throw it into a post, thinking to impress or insult. Instead, you have just shown me and everyone else reading this post the level of research you've actually done on the subject. Unlike the questionable practice of Reparation Therapy, CBT, Reality Therapy, and Reactive Emotional Therapy has been an effective tool in treating a wide variety of personality disorders, addictions, and even homosexual practices. Though the premise of Reparation Therapy is good in theory, the efforts to put it into practice have suffered from heavy-handedness at the hands of untrained counselors. Perhaps if further study was done, it might have value, but I'm not willing to be one to endorse it for now.

 
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eastcoast_bsc

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intricatic said:
You know, when you bring up causing harm, you're just opening a huge can of worms, but I'll avoid getting into that out of respect for the subject.

Just because a thing may or may not cause harm, does not make it right. However, saying that homosexuals have less abusive relationships than heterosexuals is a smoke-screen, unless you can demonstrate the validity of the statement, it's worthless, although it really doesn't matter to begin with unless it can be demonstrated that homosexuality is not a neurochemical association that can be altered over time like other elements of neurophysiology.

I think you have it in reverse, you are the one who is implying that Homosexuality has Neurochemical associations. She you not be the one to prove that it does and that it can be altered?
 
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intricatic

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eastcoast_bsc said:
I think you have it in reverse, you are the one who is implying that Homosexuality has Neurochemical associations. She you not be the one to prove that it does and that it can be altered?
I'm not the one trying to justify it.
 
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united4Peace

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Colabomb said:
Marriage is the only place where sex should happen.

Secondly this is an issue of the interpretation of Scripture, not how we think things should be.

Realistically Marriage isnt the only place sex takes place.
As a mother I hope if I at least dont get marriage across to my children that I do get Love and Respect across to them when it comes to them having sex with another person.
Love and REspect not only for the other person but for themselves as well considering that a person cannot give Love and Respect to others if they cannot give it to themselves.

I dont mean to disrespect you but what exactly is marriage?
Marriage for many years was about ownership and having children so that they could help out financially. If one could not have a child then the women was blamed.
I think God would rather have marriage or unions where couples were together out of love...
Maybe that isnt in the Bible but I dont think everything God thinks is in the Bible. Sometimes I think God speaks to us through our hearts.
Just MO....:)
 
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united4Peace

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Rdr Iakovos said:
I deeply concur with your last statement. I do wonder though if you give God the right to put sexuality in a box. Is it ok for Him to demand monogamy? Fidelity? Does He- or I- have the right and responsibility to tell my teenagers to keep their sexuality tightly wrapped in the box, and allow no one to even shake the box to see what gift is enclosed inside?

Passions are to be channeled and directed, not boxed. The urge to mate should be sublimated among those who are courting, and using the inherent drive to merge, the two should merge emotionally and spiritually before they merge physically. According to scripture, this bond is matrimony, which is reserved for one man and one woman.

As for secular marriage and cohabitation: not my concern, and none of my business. In fact, if the Episcopalians want to bless same sex unions, go for it.
I am not troubled by populist morality or trends. I am troubled that people justify their behavior by their felt needs. I am also troubled by those whose morality is capricious and situational, such as those who claim to be pro-life yet support the Iraq fiasco and capital punishment.

I guess I'm a square peg in a dodecahedron shaped era

Hi :wave:
First...Thanks...
Second...I just want to clear up what I meant...
I wasnt implying that we all go out and celebrate our sexuality by sleeping with everyone LOL.
What I am saying is be proud of who we are...regardless of who we are in love with (as long as the love is returned...please dont be a stalker :D ) and celebrate in that.
In fact one doesnt even need to be in a relationship to be happy, as I said in a earlier post one needs to love and respect themselves first and foremost before they can love and respect anyone else regardless.
Ive made mistakes (Im a human) but I do agree that when in a relationship that one should stay within that relationship.
Did that make more sense? Im horrible at explaining myself..Im sorry :sigh:
 
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IisJustMe

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united4Peace said:
Realistically Marriage isnt the only place sex takes place.
Since when is it about "realistic expectations?" People establish those, not God. God didn't intend for sex to take place anywhere but within marriage.
united4Peace said:
As a mother I hope if I at least dont get marriage across to my children that I do get Love and Respect across to them when it comes to them having sex with another person.
I would hope you wouldn't put it to them as an option like that, or they will actually think there is nothing wrong with making a choice. Teach them God's expectations, not the world's.
united4Peace said:
Love and REspect not only for the other person but for themselves as well considering that a person cannot give Love and Respect to others if they cannot give it to themselves.
Respect for themselves in the midst of a sinful relationship? How's that work?
united4Peace said:
I dont mean to disrespect you but what exactly is marriage? Marriage for many years was about ownership and having children so that they could help out financially. If one could not have a child then the women was blamed.
You're talking about what man has made it, not what God intended. Strive to rise above sinful man's intentions and reach for the goodness of God!
united4Peace said:
I think God would rather have marriage or unions where couples were together out of love...
Absolutely. Together out of love in marriage. Why would we want less for ourselves than He wants for us?
united4Peace said:
Maybe that isnt in the Bible but I dont think everything God thinks is in the Bible. Sometimes I think God speaks to us through our hearts.
No, its in the Bible. Its called 'marriage' not "living together" "mutual respectful relationship" "same-sex relationahip" or "committed relationship." Its called MARRIAGE. We should all try to remember that.
 
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intricatic

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united4Peace said:
Realistically Marriage isnt the only place sex takes place.
As a mother I hope if I at least dont get marriage across to my children that I do get Love and Respect across to them when it comes to them having sex with another person.
Love and REspect not only for the other person but for themselves as well considering that a person cannot give Love and Respect to others if they cannot give it to themselves.

I dont mean to disrespect you but what exactly is marriage?
Marriage for many years was about ownership and having children so that they could help out financially. If one could not have a child then the women was blamed.
I think God would rather have marriage or unions where couples were together out of love...
Maybe that isnt in the Bible but I dont think everything God thinks is in the Bible. Sometimes I think God speaks to us through our hearts.
Just MO....:)
Are you saying that the institution of marriage wasn't about love, and still isn't today? I dunno, when Jesus was talking about marriage, it definitely struck me that marriage is supposed to be about love. This "ownership and chidren" argument doesn't make any sense, although I'm sure, circumstantially, it was a factor due to economic/social issues. It may also have been true in a negative context in some situations, just as marriage can be both positive and negative in some situations today. Personally, I think it's too easy to take for granted the economic freedoms that we have now. That doesn't mean that marriage isn't a mandate handed to us Biblically, and even from Jesus Himself.
 
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Colabomb

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united4Peace said:
Realistically Marriage isnt the only place sex takes place.
As a mother I hope if I at least dont get marriage across to my children that I do get Love and Respect across to them when it comes to them having sex with another person.
Love and REspect not only for the other person but for themselves as well considering that a person cannot give Love and Respect to others if they cannot give it to themselves.

Pledging your life to someone, your whole life no matter what happens, is not one of the Greatest expressions of Love there is?

Secondly, just because some people have sex outside of marriage means they should. People do all sorts of things they shouldn't.

I dont mean to disrespect you but what exactly is marriage?
Marriage for many years was about ownership and having children so that they could help out financially. If one could not have a child then the women was blamed.
I think God would rather have marriage or unions where couples were together out of love...
Maybe that isnt in the Bible but I dont think everything God thinks is in the Bible. Sometimes I think God speaks to us through our hearts.
Just MO....:)

What happens when one person just does not love the other anymore? If marriage is only about love (it is partially about love) than what happens when that love dissolves? Is the other person left out in the rain? Sorry no.

The Most important part of a marriage service is where one person VOWS themselves to the other.

It's a deal for life. Different from sex between dating people.
 
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djbcrawford

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DaveS said:
It is just a fact that I have seen many homosexual couples more happy and commited than heterosexual, I am not claiming that every other case is as such. I am just stating what I have seen.

There are many people out there who appear happy in their sin. Happiness and commitment does not equal right.

DaveS said:
But if you can't change direction.

Any sinner can use that excuse. The debate is about whether the act is wrong or not. You can't say something isn't a sin because it's hard to change. It might be a lifelong struggle which will only be over in glory.

DaveS said:
How are we supposed to decide if a gay person lusts instead of loves? I think that is up to their own hearts and we should stop nosing in on their own business.

We don't, we are merely debating whether the act is right or wrong. This argument would stop us debating anything moral at all.

DaveS said:
But not if you hurt the person you are trying to help. This is the essence of situational ethics where it all applies to each individual and cannot be brushed over an entire group of people. This is the mistake that is being made --- would you be happy to hear that you are going to rot in Hell because of something you cannot change?

While we should be sensitive to people's feelings, we cannot say something is right when it is wrong because it will hurt their feelings. Any number greater than two is a group of people, so by this argument any sin is okay if a group of people are doing it? This is not about condeming people, this is about debating whether an act is right or not. Would you be happy to be "rotting in hell" (your words, not mine) and find out someone didn't warn you about it because they might hurt your feelings.

DaveS said:
God only does things which make sense and has reason, hence why Jesus condemned the Pharisee's and ceremonial Laws.

Correct, he does, but that does not mean we will see or understand the reason. When you were a child, your parents told you to come in at a certain time. You didn't understand why. You didn't want to. It wasn't fair, your friends were allowed to stay out later. But your parents knew best. Now you know why, then you didn't.

I was in a situation many years ago and I really felt God was telling me to walk away (it was in sermons, bible-readings, TV shows, the lot). It didn't make sense at the time and it was against everything I believed about love and friendship. I so nearly did it and bottled it at the last minute. My faith and Christian walk suffered as a result. Then about two years later I discovered the reason God wanted me to leave. It was a burden I carried for years until I finally broke down and confessed it at a church men's weekend. It was only then I felt I heard God say "It's okay, I know you're sorry" and my burden was gone.

Moral of the story - If we obey God because we can see the reason it's not faith, just common sense. Faith is believing God when he tells us to do something we don't understand.

BTW Jesus was annoyed at the Pharisee's for adding rules their own rules to the bible.
 
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united4Peace

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Colabomb said:
Pledging your life to someone, your whole life no matter what happens, is not one of the Greatest expressions of Love there is?

Secondly, just because some people have sex outside of marriage means they should. People do all sorts of things they shouldn't.



What happens when one person just does not love the other anymore? If marriage is only about love (it is partially about love) than what happens when that love dissolves? Is the other person left out in the rain? Sorry no.

The Most important part of a marriage service is where one person VOWS themselves to the other.

It's a deal for life. Different from sex between dating people.

I didnt say marriage wasnt different than dating, it definatly is. Marriage you are bonded together.
I happen to be married and either of us could have walked away many times but have not because we made vows to each other.
Now saying that there are times the D word is called for, like when one is abused to the point where they are black and blue etc...and I hope to Gosh no one blames the victim and says that she or he should stay as they knew what they were marrying etc.
Sex and Love are two separate things...I never said they werent and I wont even aurgue that point.
I hope that my children Love and Respect their own bodies along with whomever they fall inlove with enough to wait for that moment...But...I am NOT them.
They are human and they are there own person. I can guide them and give them my own thoughts and hopefully God will also guide them...
With that said....
On the homosexuality part...
I don't find anything wrong with two people that are in love regardless of who they are (man/woman, man/man, woman/woman) as long as they love each other and are true to one another and God is what counts...
But that is MO...whether or not God agree's I guess I'll find out when I get to the other side...just as all of us will.
Peace and GBY all :wave:
 
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I had a homosexual who had the desire since early childhood but had received Christ come to me for counseling within my being supervised by the counseling center. He had practiced it some in college. He came seeking freedom from his desires. Non of his own efforts worked. This is usually the case when a person seeks to live the Christian life from their own resources. I was trained to counsel people to build an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ and totally surrender to Christ so that Christ can deal with their problems. People cannot overcome sin by trying to. Sins are overcomed by surrendering self-life for Christ life. Love for Christ gains the victory which is a far cry from obedience because you are suppose to. Which is easier. Obedience because you do not want to do anything to displease God or because you are commanded to. Love for God, which He freely gives to those who seek to love Him, is the source of freedom from temptation.
This person was freed from his bondage out of a spiritual love relationship with Jesus. He expresses his gratitude every time we meet.
Even if one never gains freedom from this bondage he will still go to heaven but have much loss of heavenly rewards, provided he had truly received Jesus. David killed Goliath with God's power then later committed adultery and murder when he stopped depending on God. David then repented and Jesus called David a man after His own heart. Interesting facts to ponder, isn't it?
 
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Mat 23:4 "For they [scribes and Pharisees] bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

From Chuck Smith’s commentary:
The scribes and Pharisees interpreted the Mosaic law to the letter of the outward observance, but they totally neglected the inward motivations. Jesus taught that God looks at our hearts.

From David Guzik’s commentary:
The first accusation against these religious leaders is that they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; this has not changed in our day, still many make Christianity a set of burdensome rules to follow.

The early church rejected this legalism when it insisted that obedience to the Mosaic law is not a foundation for the Christian life; Peter told the legalists in Acts 15:10 why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The burden of the religious leaders contrasts sharply to Jesus' burden: It is light, and His yoke is easy (Matthew 11:30)


Mat 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

From David Guzik’s commentary:
They shut up the kingdom against those who would enter

a. Literally, the word hypocrites refers to an actor, someone playing a part; Jesus will expose the corruption covered by the pretty religious exterior.

b. The religious leaders kept people from the kingdom by obscuring God's word with human traditions, and by denying Jesus; "religiosity" and "churchianity" do the same thing today

c. It is bad enough for someone to not enter into heaven themselves; but it is far worse to prevent another from going in (Matthew 18:6)

Mat 23:24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

From Chuck Smith’s commentary:
They would strain and gag to try to cough up a gnat they had accidentally swallowed, because it was not kosher to eat blood, yet they would ignore the important things.


From David Guzik’s commentary:
Jesus rebukes their obsession with trivialities, while ignoring the real matters

a. Their tithing was great, but not if it only soothed the guilt of their neglect of the greater matters of the law

b. Jesus illustrates their folly with a humorous picture of a gnat which could not be swallowed because it was not bled properly in accord with kosher regulations, and swallowing a whole camel instead

c. Tragically, the church is often guilty of being distracted with trivialities.

Mat 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.*
Mat 23:26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

From Chuck Smith’s commentary: What we are on the outside makes no difference to God. He looks into our hearts


Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'*
Mat 22:38 "This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 "And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'*
Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

The scribes and Pharisees, much like many of today’s Christian churches, are quick to condemn those that don’t follow the letter of the law, all the while, completely missing the spirit of the law.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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IisJustMe said:
"I'm not a counselor to those who practice homosexual behavior, and I don't recall saying I am. If I did, please feel free to point out where, so I can edit it, and apologize. I was responding to an incorrect statement about CBT, thank you.
I think I followed this sentence, but I'm not sure. But I'll address the "repression" and "whiteknuckling" comment. Its an assumption on your part -- and a grossly incorrect one -- that most ex-homosexuals are handling their recovery that way. Sorry to disappoint you, but that isn't the case for all of them. Some? Of course, just like alcoholics and addicts of other kinds. As I said in my post, no one said we weren't going to struggle with sin.
You mean to prove my statements? yeah, terribly inconvenient that is, but what else would you expect of someone who knows what he's talking about?
Yes, actually, I do, and I condemn the unholy treatment of people who practice homosexuality as much as I condemn the acts themselves. However, notice I did not say "condemn the ones who practice them." I have some good friends who have either come out of the homosexual lifestyle, or are still in it. Of the latter, I don't judge them and chastise them. If they want to talk about what the Bible says, I'm available, but I'm not qualified to counsel them. I'm an addictions and behaviors counselor -- I don't have my certification in sexual "orientation" and the sad part is, the psychologists and psychiatrists associations won't offer certification to help people turn away from homosexual practices.

Yet the majority of depression, suicidal thoughts, self-hatred or low self-esteem, and other personality and emotional disorders afflicting those who engage in homosexual practices are brought on by their own inner conviction, not their treatment by society. They live with themselves a lot more than they have to be confronted with hate-mongers, and even those they encounter, they can escape. Its difficult to get away from yourself.
Probably, but since they won't recognize the major cause of the emotional upheaval in those patients, they have to emphasize the secondary causes and label them "primary" out of political correctness.
Yes there is, and His name is Jesus Christ, the same as for all sin. And much as you want to deny it or work your way around it, homosexual activity is a sin, well-defined in both the Old and New Testaments.
The thousands who have left the practice and the lifestyle are the proof that you are kidding yourself, along with everyone else who thinks as you do. God loves everyone, sinners and saints alike, and He did not make anyone who is incapable of leaving their sin at the foot of the cross.

By the way, one of the great dangers of cruising the Internet trying to sound informed is that you dredge up terms like "reparation therapy" without knowing what it is (other than the gay activist web sites call it "bad") and throw it into a post, thinking to impress or insult. Instead, you have just shown me and everyone else reading this post the level of research you've actually done on the subject. Unlike the questionable practice of Reparation Therapy, CBT, Reality Therapy, and Reactive Emotional Therapy has been an effective tool in treating a wide variety of personality disorders, addictions, and even homosexual practices. Though the premise of Reparation Therapy is good in theory, the efforts to put it into practice have suffered from heavy-handedness at the hands of untrained counselors. Perhaps if further study was done, it might have value, but I'm not willing to be one to endorse it for now.



To answer your unchrist like comments in regards to me crusiing the internet to sound informed and your snide comments in regard to my spelling. I work a real job and I attend a real College , so at times I am a bit rushed, which shows in both my grammar and spelling. The information I read in regards to reparation therapy has come from two of the heavy weights in the ex gay movement. 1. Narth {national association for research and therapy of Homosexuality} and Exodus international. neither one of these groups have submitted any of their claims or data to peer review. So to claim thousands of Homosexuals have changed to Heterosexuality is False. In fact most health organizations have stated that any type of conversion therapy is both dangerous and unethical. can you provide any empirical evidence to show that Conversion therapy in any form works?
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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ThyNeighbor said:
Mat 23:4 "For they [scribes and Pharisees] bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


From Chuck Smith’s commentary:
The scribes and Pharisees interpreted the Mosaic law to the letter of the outward observance, but they totally neglected the inward motivations. Jesus taught that God looks at our hearts.

From David Guzik’s commentary:
The first accusation against these religious leaders is that they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; this has not changed in our day, still many make Christianity a set of burdensome rules to follow.

The early church rejected this legalism when it insisted that obedience to the Mosaic law is not a foundation for the Christian life; Peter told the legalists in Acts 15:10 why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The burden of the religious leaders contrasts sharply to Jesus' burden: It is light, and His yoke is easy (Matthew 11:30)


Mat 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


From David Guzik’s commentary:
They shut up the kingdom against those who would enter

a. Literally, the word hypocrites refers to an actor, someone playing a part; Jesus will expose the corruption covered by the pretty religious exterior.

b. The religious leaders kept people from the kingdom by obscuring God's word with human traditions, and by denying Jesus; "religiosity" and "churchianity" do the same thing today

c. It is bad enough for someone to not enter into heaven themselves; but it is far worse to prevent another from going in (Matthew 18:6)

Mat 23:24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!


From Chuck Smith’s commentary:
They would strain and gag to try to cough up a gnat they had accidentally swallowed, because it was not kosher to eat blood, yet they would ignore the important things.


From David Guzik’s commentary:
Jesus rebukes their obsession with trivialities, while ignoring the real matters

a. Their tithing was great, but not if it only soothed the guilt of their neglect of the greater matters of the law

b. Jesus illustrates their folly with a humorous picture of a gnat which could not be swallowed because it was not bled properly in accord with kosher regulations, and swallowing a whole camel instead

c. Tragically, the church is often guilty of being distracted with trivialities.

Mat 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.*
Mat 23:26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.


From Chuck Smith’s commentary: What we are on the outside makes no difference to God. He looks into our hearts


Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'*
Mat 22:38 "This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 "And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'*
Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."


The scribes and Pharisees, much like many of today’s Christian churches, are quick to condemn those that don’t follow the letter of the law, all the while, completely missing the spirit of the law.


Like a breath of fresh air. Nice post:)
 
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IisJustMe

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That's the feeling I get talking to you about the former homosexual practitioners who have left the lifestyle. Its as though you want to deny they exist. You say, "Show me" and their stories are all over the Internet. You seem to be fearful of the concept of someone escaping from the homosexual lifestyle. Heck, why not just PM "Kgreg" who posted on this thread earlier and called himself a "repentant homosexual" -- argue with him and tell him he's really not.
eastcoast_bsc said:
To answer your unchrist like comments in regards to me crusiing the internet to sound informed and your snide comments in regard to my spelling. I work a real job and I attend a real College , so at times I am a bit rushed, which shows in both my grammar and spelling.
That wasn't "unChristlike" it was an effort to apologize if I missed your point, You seem overly sensitive in this discussion. Relax. Its just a message board.
eastcoast_bsc said:
The information I read in regards to reparation therapy has come from two of the heavy weights in the ex gay movement. 1. Narth {national association for research and therapy of Homosexuality} and Exodus international. neither one of these groups have submitted any of their claims or data to peer review.So to claim thousands of Homosexuals have changed to Heterosexuality is False.
Would you accept the data if they did submit it? The flat, unadulterated, indisputable facts are that thousands of people who used to suffer depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, self-loathing, low self-esteem, introversion, and dangerous self-destructive activity typified by long-term repression of urges followed by binge-like compulsive engagements in unprotected and wanton sexual encounters. Those same people no longer suffer from any of those. Why? Because they have stopped participating in homosexual activity, and many -- not all, but many -- have entered into safe, monogomous hetereosexual relationships.

Your repeated denials of those facts notwithstanding, that is the truth. If you are in denial of it, or it is inconvenient, unacceptable, or beyond your ability to understand, it is still the truth.
eastcoast_bsc said:
In fact most health organizations have stated that any type of conversion therapy is both dangerous and unethical.
Most secular health organizations decided in the 1971 conferences over the DSM-II that homosexual activity should be removed from the book and no longer be considered a mental illness or personality disorder. They made that decision despite evidence that it is the cause of all those emotional disorders listed above, and continues to be the cause of them today.

Why? Because the activists even then had an interest in declassifying homosexual practice as a mental illness, even though most people who engage in those practices suffer a minimum of three of those disorders. My observations are that homosexual behavior is as debilitating and disruptive in a person's life as any addiction, and carries many of the same consequences of long-term addiction. But officially secular counselors can't treat the root cause, because the root cause isn't recognized as a problem and to suggest that it is problem violates the precepts of the APA.

eastcoast_bsc said:
can you provide any empirical evidence to show that Conversion therapy in any form works?
Beyond pointing you to the testimonies of those men and women who have publicized their escape from the trap of homosexual behavior, I can't show you any, no. But that's your problem, not theirs. If you don't want to believe them, there is nothing more to say to you. I wonder if it was raining outside and you didn't want it to rain, if you would stand in its midst soaking wet and say, "What rain?"
 
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GrimWolf

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The information I read in regards to reparation therapy has come from two of the heavy weights in the ex gay movement. 1. Narth {national association for research and therapy of Homosexuality} and Exodus international. neither one of these groups have submitted any of their claims or data to peer review. So to claim thousands of Homosexuals have changed to Heterosexuality is False. In fact most health organizations have stated that any type of conversion therapy is both dangerous and unethical.

Please do not take this personally, but I fear that you are taking a world view on this. So I would like to point out something to you...

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
John 14:19
Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
John 15:18
[ The World Hates the Disciples ] "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

1 Corinthians 3:3
You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"

2 Corinthians 1:12
[ Paul's Change of Plans ] Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace.

2 Corinthians 10:2
I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

Colossians 2:20
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:

Titus 2:12
It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

1 John 2:15
[ Do Not Love the World ] Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:16
For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.

1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

We cannot accept views because the majority of the world thinks it is right, we have to follow Jesus.
 
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