Homosexuality

[djbcrawford]

I could also argue that gambling takes considerably more mental effort than in football, however, most people who gamble do simply do it for fun and they know when to stop. Afterall, gambling is such a blanket term anyway and can only ever be applied to an individual at a time.

I used to have no problem with gambling until I realised that it doesn't generate money, it merely moves existing money around (kind of like a pyramid scheme). If you win you are essentially stealing someone else's money. Now while you may say it is their fault for being stupid enough to lose it in the first place, you aren't exactly loving your neighbour.

Take this example.

'Gambling is wrong and all who do it will go to Hell'

'Man donates all winnings from the lottery to charity'

Is the man still going to Hell?

You answered this yourself earlier. Unless a man repents and turns to God he goes to Hell whether he keeps the money or gives it away.

But homosexuality involves love between two people of the same sex as opposed to two people of opposite sexes. How can the same love be wrong in one but fine in the other? Neither cause harm, why should there be a distinction?

See all above quotes in this thread on why homosexual acts are wrong. How do you know it's the same? The bible seems to say it isn't. Love (in this context) isn't the love your neighbour love that the bible talks about. How many people have justified breaking up a marriage or even murder with the excuse "but we love eachother". Using the word "love" in this context is just a way to make something that is wrong seem right.

Again, I point out that the homosexual lifestyle only ever becomes more important than their relationship with God at times when it comes under the pressure as what happens with heterosexual people or they are forced into thinking about it. i.e. their lifestyle it condemned and they are condemned to Hell.

If some part of my lifestyle appears to contradict something in scripture I need to confront it. If not, I am just burying my head in the sand.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

As I state in my testimony, I'm a former alcoholic and compulsive gambler. I do not struggle with those addictions anymore, because I have been delivered from them by Jesus Christ. I frankly don't care whether science is able to "measure" my recovery, or the recovery of former practitioners of homosexual behavior. Science can't measure faith, and I would dispute with you whether the secular practices of psychology or psychiatry are science in the truest sense of the word.

I'm a certified Biblical Counselor, my degree is from a seminary. I am also certified in addictions, marriage and family counseling, grief therapy, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Reality Therapy, and crisis counseling. I have never met any two of my secular counterparts who can agree on any one point of their discipline. While brain chemistry can be analyzed and measured, it doesn't account for all aspects of behavior. No one knows, and certainly no one can agree upon, why some patients respond to therapy or counseling, and some do not. I know from my experiences, however, that faith put into action makes the difference, though I cannot begin to explain it.

If an addict wants to be free of his sin, he will be. If a person with a personality disorder wants to function without negative social consequences, he can. People who make up their mind not to be depressed -- if it is not a clinical (i.e., chemical) depression -- they get over it. It is the same with all sin. There is nothing genetic about sin. It is a mindset. Paul summed it up in Romans 8:6, 7 ...

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Even Christians can suffer from this faulty mindset, despite prayer, fasting, and even desire. Until we surrender ourselves to the will of God, we cannot overcome all the sin in our lives. When we are in tune with His will, we are able to foresake the things of the flesh for the things of the Spirit, and leave willful sin behind.

Are not cognitive behavioural therapies such as Dialectic Behavior Therapy based on secular science and philosophy? I believe they are. All I am trying to say that I have spoken with many of christians who are "exGay" and most if not all still struggle with same sex feelings, after many years of struggle. Most groups now seem to think that there is some genetic componet to Homosexuality. If that is proven to be the case, the whole " Gay people are bad and going to Hell" thing would be called into question. The major difference between acoholics, compuslsive gamblers and that of Homosexuals, is that they directly injurous to their health and relationships with others. Being Gay in of itself is not. If behavioral therapy was succesful in making Homosexuals become Heterosexual, I am sure that it would and should withstand peer scrutiny.

 

[IisJustMe]

Are not cognitive behavioural therapies such as Dialectic Behavior Therapy based on secular science and philosophy? I believe they are.

Dr. Aaron T. Beck, MD and faculty member at the University of Pennsylvania developed Cognitive Behavioral Therapy out of a frustration with secular therapies and their failure to be rooted in rational everyday thought. He developed CBT in response to that frustration, and proved that Biblcial principles -- simply that the way we perceive situations influences how we feel emotionally. -- is valid in real-life situations.

Though it is not touted as a biblical model for therapy, it fulfills the biblical principle of "taking every thought captive in obedience to Christ." The methodolgy is to recognize situations that are antecedents, or triggers, for bad behavior, interrupt the thought process before it results in a behavior or belief asserting itself in the form of that behavior, resulting in negative consequences.

Note the "A-B-C" progression, Antecedent, Behavior/Belief and Consequence. It is a simple way to help the patient recognize the process, and defeat it. It is the best method of putting a halt to "insane thinking" ... doing the same thing over and over and over again, expecting a different result. While that truly isn't "insane" it can be the appearance of addictive or compulsive behaviors, seemingly making no sense to the outside observer.

All I am trying to say that I have spoken with many of christians who are "exGay" and most if not all still struggle with same sex feelings, after many years of struggle.

Where does everyone get the idea that battling sin is not a struggle? Just because the struggle exists doesn't mean the former homosexual practitioner has not left the behavior behind. Occasionally, very occasionally, I still have thoughts of drinking or gambling. Does that mean I'm not delivered? You may think what you want, but my personal answer is, "absolutely not!"

Most groups now seem to think that there is some genetic componet to Homosexuality.

That's actually the "big lie" of the homosexual activist movement. They've been trying to say "we can't help ourselves, its genetic" for 20 years or more, but the reality is, there is not one substantiative study out there indicating any genetic link to homosexual behavior. The latest came out in March of last year. The study’s lead author, Brian Mustanski from University of Illinois at Chicago, said " ... there is no one 'gay' gene. Sexual orientation is a complex trait, so it's not surprising that we found several DNA regions involved in its expression." But an examination of the data reveals that the study had no statistically significant findings.

In other words, various factors may combine to have some unknown influence on homosexual behavior, and among those factors may be genetics, but there is no "gay gene" or gene combination known at this time. My personal opinion is there won't be one found later, either, any more than there was an "alcoholism" gene or a "compulsive" gene researchers were looking for in the 80's.

Don't kid yourself, either, it isn't some magnanimous motivation these studies search for genetic causes of addictions and compulsions. The bottom line is that if a genetic link even be hinted at, some drug company will be marketing a "gay pill" or an "addiction cure" in a matter of years.

The major difference between acoholics, compuslsive gamblers and that of Homosexuals, is that they directly injurous to their health and relationships with others. Being Gay in of itself is not.

How would you explain the equivilent rates of suicide, depression, personality disorders and low self-esteem among homosexual practitioners and addicts or compulsives, then? Personally, I think it proves the sin in all those groups is the same. And like it or not, the Bible specifically states homosexual behavior is a sin. But then so is adultery, murder, lying, gossip, slander, and pride. All separate one from God, until they are dealt with at the cross.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Dr. Aaron T. Beck, MD and faculty member at the University of Pennsylvania developed Cognitive Behavioral Therapy out of a frustration with secular therapies and their failure to be rooted in rational everyday thought. He developed CBT in response to that frustration, and proved that Biblcial principles -- simply that the way we perceive situations influences how we feel emotionally. -- is valid in real-life situations.

Though it is not touted as a biblical model for therapy, it fulfills the biblical principle of "taking every thought captive in obedience to Christ." The methodolgy is to recognize situations that are antecedents, or triggers, for bad behavior, interrupt the thought process before it results in a behavior or belief asserting itself in the form of that behavior, resulting in negative consequences.

Note the "A-B-C" progression, Antecedent, Behavior/Belief and Consequence. It is a simple way to help the patient recognize the process, and defeat it. It is the best method of putting a halt to "insane thinking" ... doing the same thing over and over and over again, expecting a different result. While that truly isn't "insane" it can be the appearance of addictive or compulsive behaviors, seemingly making no sense to the outside observer.
Where does everyone get the idea that battling sin is not a struggle? Just because the struggle exists doesn't mean the former homosexual practitioner has not left the behavior behind. Occasionally, very occasionally, I still have thoughts of drinking or gambling. Does that mean I'm not delivered? You may think what you want, but my personal answer is, "absolutely not!"
That's actually the "big lie" of the homosexual activist movement. They've been trying to say "we can't help ourselves, its genetic" for 20 years or more, but the reality is, there is not one substantiative study out there indicating any genetic link to homosexual behavior. The latest came out in March of last year. The study’s lead author, Brian Mustanski from University of Illinois at Chicago, said " ... there is no one 'gay' gene. Sexual orientation is a complex trait, so it's not surprising that we found several DNA regions involved in its expression." But an examination of the data reveals that the study had no statistically significant findings.

In other words, various factors may combine to have some unknown influence on homosexual behavior, and among those factors may be genetics, but there is no "gay gene" or gene combination known at this time. My personal opinion is there won't be one found later, either, any more than there was an "alcoholism" gene or a "compulsive" gene researchers were looking for in the 80's.

Don't kid yourself, either, it isn't some magnanimous motivation these studies search for genetic causes of addictions and compulsions. The bottom line is that if a genetic link even be hinted at, some drug company will be marketing a "gay pill" or an "addiction cure" in a matter of years.
How would you explain the equivilent rates of suicide, depression, personality disorders and low self-esteem among homosexual practitioners and addicts or compulsives, then? Personally, I think it proves the sin in all those groups is the same. And like it or not, the Bible specifically states homosexual behavior is a sin. But then so is adultery, murder, lying, gossip, slander, and pride. All separate one from God, until they are dealt with at the cross.

Well apparently cognitive bahavioural therapy is not too effective or you could provide evidence that you have patients/clients who where Homosexual and are now functioning Heterosexuals. I don't me those that lives of repression or whiteknuckling it. As for the rates of depression and suicide, mmm seems you want to quote statistics when it benefits you. But alas, I am sure a lot of young Gay males might be depressed or suicidal because of the way society treats them. Just on this site alone, I have heard that Gays are going to burn for eternity in Hell and that they are sodomites. Do you see my point? I am sure I could go on as to the pressures that are put on young Gays, that could lead to destructive behaviours. I am also sure that I could find Literature from the APA that would support such statements. But my poinstil is that there is no "Cure" for Homosexuality, one is Gay for reasons that are beyond that individual and trying all the reparation therapies in the world are not going to change that fact. You have the right to consider it a sin, but you cannot provide and proof or evidence that you change people into heterosexuals.

 

[djbcrawford]

Most groups now seem to think that there is some genetic componet to Homosexuality. If that is proven to be the case, the whole " Gay people are bad and going to Hell" thing would be called into question. [/FONT]

Not really, any more than if we found a gene that inclines people to outbursts of rage justifying homicide. Also many diseases have genetic roots so if would prove nothing.

It's not about Gay People being bad and going to Hell. All unrepentent sinners are going to Hell and it's our job to try and save them. The debate is whether the homosexual act is wrong, not to prove people are bad. We are all "bad".

 

[Polycarp1]

The dividing line of what rules to apply is to consider what rules are ceremonial and what rules are moral. The ceremonial rules do not apply anymore because those pointed to Christ but the moral rules still apply. Idolatry, sexual immorality, murder, stealing etc. still apply today because they are of a moral nature. Paul never said since we are under grace we are free from morals. Paul always said we are free from the religious rituals of the law.

In fact, WHERE in Scripture do you find this ridiculous division? It's not what Paul said: We are free from the Law, according to him. It's not what Christ said; He set us a much higher moral standard than obeying a fraction of Torah.

One that, by the way, says something very interesting about how Christians shoulde behave with regard to homosexual people. Those who see a mote of same-sex attraction in the eyes of the gay people are IMO looking past a rather large plank lodged in their own eye in regard to just that point.

And do not proclaim that "it's really loving to keep them from going to Hell for their sin" -- that's not only refusing to do what God said, but putting the blame over on Him -- "if I don't chew these people out here and now for being sinners in my judgment, that mean ol' God is gonna send them all to burn." Real nice testimony you make to our Lord's justice and mercy!

 

[DaveS]

I used to have no problem with gambling until I realised that it doesn't generate money, it merely moves existing money around (kind of like a pyramid scheme). If you win you are essentially stealing someone else's money. Now while you may say it is their fault for being stupid enough to lose it in the first place, you aren't exactly loving your neighbour.

You aren't exactly loving your neighbour when you win a game of anything against them either. Afterall, aren't you stealing their 'pride' in a win? What if the win gives prize money, aren't you stealing that prize money from them?

You answered this yourself earlier. Unless a man repents and turns to God he goes to Hell whether he keeps the money or gives it away.

Then why does it matter with being gay? Why bother with all the stuff against them if - as you say yourself - it doesn't actually matter?

See all above quotes in this thread on why homosexual acts are wrong. How do you know it's the same? The bible seems to say it isn't. Love (in this context) isn't the love your neighbour love that the bible talks about. How many people have justified breaking up a marriage or even murder with the excuse "but we love eachother". Using the word "love" in this context is just a way to make something that is wrong seem right.

How do you know it is the same? How do you claim authority that 'their' love is different and somehow wrong simply because it is in a different direction to the way you see it? I have seen many homosexual couples in a commited, loving relationship which is often actually less abusive etc etc than heterosexual couples.
I think I have already pointed out that being gay and acting as such is completely different to any of the sins you continually post. They cause harm, being gay does not.

If some part of my lifestyle appears to contradict something in scripture I need to confront it. If not, I am just burying my head in the sand.

Then why take it upon yourself to point out the sins that others are apparently commiting? Do you consider yourself to be on such a moral high ground as to do this?

 

[DaveS]

And do not proclaim that "it's really loving to keep them from going to Hell for their sin" -- that's not only refusing to do what God said, but putting the blame over on Him -- "if I don't chew these people out here and now for being sinners in my judgment, that mean ol' God is gonna send them all to burn." Real nice testimony you make to our Lord's justice and mercy!

If I may add to this that this behaviour may actually actively drive people away from Christ. Why would someone want to join a movement that condemns them to an eternity of suffering for beign who they are? Maybe we, as Christians, should look past all the supposed wrong in other's lives and just focus on helping our own spiritual development and that of others in a non-righteous manner. If it is wrong then they will realise of thier own accord. This is commonly called free will and is something God likes rather a lot.

Free will is actually the basis of Earth - God wants us to come to Him of our own accord, out of the love in our own hearts. He does not want us to be forced into a nice little mould that shuffles down the very long narrow path complete with obstacles, twists, turns, forks and dead ends. Simply said, if it is good for God to look past the bad and see the love in the heart then it is good enough for me.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Err...

[bible]9 " 'Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. 10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to detest. 11 And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses. 12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you. [/bible]

Detestable = abomination

You are still comparing apples to oranges in three ways:

Eating the animals did not deserve the death penalty like the act of homosexuality.

Read the Scripture again. The "act" of eating these is not detestable or an abomination but the "them" are to be detested and the "anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales". This is different than "both of them have committed an abomination" Lev 20:13

Also, the word for abomination of a filthy animal is not the same as the abomination for the act of homosexuality. The word used for lobsters is shequets and it means filthy. The animal itself is filthy, not the act of eating it. The abomination for homosexuality is towebah and it means morally disgusting. In the Septuagint (LXX) it has the Greek meaning of a feeling of nausea, to make feel sick in the stomach.

Therefore, the Scriptures teach that certain animals are filthy and souldn't be eaten but the act of homosexuality makes God feel nauseous and He will kill all gays on Judgment Day.

 

[intricatic]

How do you know it is the same? How do you claim authority that 'their' love is different and somehow wrong simply because it is in a different direction to the way you see it? I have seen many homosexual couples in a commited, loving relationship which is often actually less abusive etc etc than heterosexual couples.
I think I have already pointed out that being gay and acting as such is completely different to any of the sins you continually post. They cause harm, being gay does not.

You know, when you bring up causing harm, you're just opening a huge can of worms, but I'll avoid getting into that out of respect for the subject.

Just because a thing may or may not cause harm, does not make it right. However, saying that homosexuals have less abusive relationships than heterosexuals is a smoke-screen, unless you can demonstrate the validity of the statement, it's worthless, although it really doesn't matter to begin with unless it can be demonstrated that homosexuality is not a neurochemical association that can be altered over time like other elements of neurophysiology.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

But where is the dividing line between ceremonial and moral law? Some laws in Leviticus don't actually have reasons that could be placed into convenient categories, where do these go?

Homosexuality is clearly a moral act. The word abomination used for homosexuality is of a moral nature as Strongs defines "8441 tow`ebah or tonebah {to-ay-baw'}; feminine active participle of 8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), "

 

[DevotiontoBible]

In fact, WHERE in Scripture do you find this ridiculous division? It's not what Paul said: We are free from the Law, according to him. It's not what Christ said; He set us a much higher moral standard than obeying a fraction of Torah.

One that, by the way, says something very interesting about how Christians shoulde behave with regard to homosexual people. Those who see a mote of same-sex attraction in the eyes of the gay people are IMO looking past a rather large plank lodged in their own eye in regard to just that point.

And do not proclaim that "it's really loving to keep them from going to Hell for their sin" -- that's not only refusing to do what God said, but putting the blame over on Him -- "if I don't chew these people out here and now for being sinners in my judgment, that mean ol' God is gonna send them all to burn." Real nice testimony you make to our Lord's justice and mercy!

Paul say's we don't have to circumscise or observe holidays or sacrifice animals anymore. But! he never says we can worship idols, or committ adultery or homosexuality. In fact he says those who do those things will go to hell 1 Cor 6:9-10. It is justice for God to kill all of the gays, which He will do one day, because two men having sex makes God feel sick Lev 20:13.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Being born gay, if this in fact is the source of homosexual desire, is to be born like any other heterosexual. By that I mean, we all have urges and desires that we either bring into submission, or we give in and indulge. We are all sexual creatures in one respect or another.

Holy scripture, New Testament and Old, clearly teach me that there is one acceptable outlet for my sexual being: marriage. Marriage is specifically described between a man and a woman, beginning in Gensis, confirmed by Jesus and Paul.

Shacking up, fornication, and any type of premarital sex are each grave violations of God's design for the expression of human sexuality. Philandering heterosexuals are no less sinful than philandering homosexuals.

Scripture gives one option to the unmarried, which includes homosexuals: Chastity and abstinence.

I would have no issue whatsoever having a homosexual priest who was/is chaste. I would find it unacceptable to have a priest who fornicated, including through committed homosexual relationship.

Though I do not and will not believe that homosexuals should be ordained or married in the Church, I fully support their right to a secular union. Biblical morality is NOT to be imposed on the world- only upon the Church.

 

[djbcrawford]

Paul say's we don't have to circumscise or observe holidays or sacrifice animals anymore. But! he never says we can worship idols, or committ adultery or homosexuality. In fact he says those who do those things will go to hell 1 Cor 6:9-10. It is justice for God to kill all of the gays, which He will do one day, because two men having sex makes God feel sick Lev 20:13.

You made such a good point and then had to spoil it all with the "kill all of the gays" statement. Sinful acts make God sick. Sinful people break his heart as it is his desire that none should perish.

 

[Colabomb]

Paul say's we don't have to circumscise or observe holidays or sacrifice animals anymore. But! he never says we can worship idols, or committ adultery or homosexuality. In fact he says those who do those things will go to hell 1 Cor 6:9-10. It is justice for God to kill all of the gays, which He will do one day, because two men having sex makes God feel sick Lev 20:13.

Wait a minute bub. Posts like this are the ones that make conservatives look like hateful nuts.

It is justice for God to destroy all sinners, not just homosexuals. You and I are just as deserving of God's Wrath.

 

[intricatic]

Make God sick? Should we, also, be sickened by sinners and shun them? Have I been going about this wrong my whole life?

 

[united4Peace]

Scanning through these ....
Sexuality is something that one is born with.
God has made each person unique...
We are a gift...
Our sexuality is a gift which is why it is to be celebrated...celebrated in a healthy way..
through healthy relationships...marriage is one.

Sexuality isnt something to be put in a box...IMO.
Too many people on both sides try to stick sexuality in a box and insist that one has to be one way or another way...
(I believe we fall in love with a person's soul...not with the outter shell)

 

[djbcrawford]

You aren't exactly loving your neighbour when you win a game of anything against them either. Afterall, aren't you stealing their 'pride' in a win? What if the win gives prize money, aren't you stealing that prize money from them?

Gambling is different from a competitive game. Besides, since Pride can be sinful, you are saving them from it.

Then why does it matter with being gay? Why bother with all the stuff against them if - as you say yourself - it doesn't actually matter?

Because this thread is about whether or not the act is sinful. Repenting of sin means not wanting to do it again. If the act is sinful, then repentence must mean a change in direction.

How do you know it is the same? How do you claim authority that 'their' love is different and somehow wrong simply because it is in a different direction to the way you see it?

It doesn't matter if their feelings are different or not. This discussion is about whether the act is wrong. My reasons were 1) biblical and 2) biological. If you were married and your wife was in a terrible accident which meant you could never have make love to her again would you love her any less. The act is different from the love.

I have seen many homosexual couples in a commited, loving relationship which is often actually less abusive etc etc than heterosexual couples.

You are always on dangerous ground when you point at one sin to justify another.

Then why take it upon yourself to point out the sins that others are apparently commiting? Do you consider yourself to be on such a moral high ground as to do this?

Do you think we should never identify an act as being wrong. A polititian takes a bribe - not my problem, an old woman is mugged - sorry, don't want to point the finger, a race of people is exterminated - well, it isn't really my business.

What use is a doctor who doesn't tell you smoking will kill you? Who are we helping by not pointing out something that is wrong? Are we not called to be the light of the world?

 

[Mling]

It doesn't matter if their feelings are different or not. This discussion is about whether the act is wrong. My reasons were 1) biblical and 2) biological. If you were married and your wife was in a terrible accident which meant you could never have make love to her again would you love her any less. The act is different from the love.

The act can be different from the love. You can also distill your love for a person and express it in one act: making love. In that case, it is very difficult to separate them.

 

[Colabomb]

Scanning through these ....
Sexuality is something that one is born with.
God has made each person unique...
We are a gift...
Our sexuality is a gift which is why it is to be celebrated...celebrated in a healthy way..
through healthy relationships...marriage is one.

Sexuality isnt something to be put in a box...IMO.
Too many people on both sides try to stick sexuality in a box and insist that one has to be one way or another way...
(I believe we fall in love with a person's soul...not with the outter shell)

Marriage is the only place where sex should happen.

Secondly this is an issue of the interpretation of Scripture, not how we think things should be.