Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[Ohioprof]

Since we're telling jokes about our religions. Heres' one for Lutherans.

Joke: How many Lutherans does it take to change a lightbulb?

Punchline: Change???

LOL!

I recall there being a whole series of lightbulb jokes about nearly every denomination. They are terrific, because they capture what is distinct about each one.

 

[Ohioprof]

Oh, Zechryphon, I was telling someone in another thread that I like most of the posters here, including many posters with whom I intensely disagree. I thought of you, but I could not remember your name. I include you on that list. I may disagree with you passionately about certain issues, but I like you personally, based on our brief forum interactions.

 

[Ohioprof]

OhioProf...

God always does what is best for us, right?

I don't know.

 

[Zecryphon]

I have falsely accused no one. I stand by everything I have said. You claim to speak for God, and you speak only your personal beliefs. You claim to know what God wants, and you don't. You claim that God calls same-sex love "sin," and God does not say anything of the kind.

Sin is doing harm to others. By denigrating the love of gay people, you do harm to gay people and to gay families. If you want to rely on the words of Jesus, think about how you are judging gay people. Jesus would never do that.

When you make statements about gay people in general, you are making statements about me, as I am a gay person.

"I have falsely accused no one."

You have repeatedly accused me of speaking for God and attributing my own prejudices to God. Both are false claims.

"I stand by everything I have said. You claim to speak for God,"

No, I have never claimed that. I have told you repeatedly, and yet here again I will tell you, I am telling you what God has said. That is not the same as speaking for God.

"and you speak only your personal beliefs. You claim to know what God wants, and you don't."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This from a woman who proudly proclaims that her "faith tradition" has no clear concept of who or what God is, yet you claim to know better than Christians what it is our God does and does not approve of. How do you come to these conclusions? It can't be based upon the Bible as you have repeatedly denied that is God's word. So how do you come by this knowledge of God you claim is truth?

"You claim that God calls same-sex love "sin," and God does not say anything of the kind."

We've been over these scriptures repeatedly. Hashing it out once more isn't going to change anybody's mind apparently. Same-sex sex is a sin. Here we go again:

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

"Sin is doing harm to others."

Nice redefinition of sin, but it's not true. A sin is the violation of God's law.

"By denigrating the love of gay people, you do harm to gay people and to gay families."

No one is denigrating your love. Get off of it. We are limiting our statements to same-sex sexual relations. We're not talking about your romantic feelings for each other.

"If you want to rely on the words of Jesus, think about how you are judging gay people. Jesus would never do that."

Yeah, right! Cuz Jesus just came to earth to give everyone a great big hug of fellowship. LOL C'mon tell me another one. I suppose Jesus never rebuked the Pharisees? I suppose He never tossed temple tables, not once but twice! I suppose Jesus never said that He did not come to bring peace, but to bring a sword of division, either.

"When you make statements about gay people in general, you are making statements about me, as I am a gay person."

No, I'm actually making statements about gay people in general, you just can't take them as general statements and have to take them personally so you can feel justified in lashing out at others for "villifying" you, when that is actually not what is happening.

 

[Zecryphon]

Oh, Zechryphon, I was telling someone in another thread that I like most of the posters here, including many posters with whom I intensely disagree. I thought of you, but I could not remember your name. I include you on that list. I may disagree with you passionately about certain issues, but I like you personally, based on our brief forum interactions.

Ya know it's funny. Most people I have terrible arguments with when we first meet, I later actually become friends with. LOL

 

[Ohioprof]

You have repeatedly accused me of speaking for God and attributing my own prejudices to God. Both are false claims.



No, I have never claimed that. I have told you repeatedly, and yet here again I will tell you, I am telling you what God has said. That is not the same as speaking for God.



Yeah, yeah, yeah. This from a woman who proudly proclaims that her "faith tradition" has no clear concept of who or what God is, yet you claim to know better than Christians what it is our God does and does not approve of. How do you come to these conclusions? It can't be based upon the Bible as you have repeatedly denied that is God's word. So how do you come by this knowledge of God you claim is truth?



We've been over these scriptures repeatedly. Hashing it out once more isn't going to change anybody's mind apparently. Same-sex sex is a sin. Here we go again:

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.



Nice redefinition of sin, but it's not true. A sin is the violation of God's law.



No one is denigrating your love. Get off of it. We are limiting our statements to same-sex sexual relations. We're not talking about your romantic feelings for each other.



Yeah, right! Cuz Jesus just came to earth to give everyone a great big hug of fellowship. LOL C'mon tell me another one. I suppose Jesus never rebuked the Pharisees? I suppose He never tossed temple tables, not once but twice! I suppose Jesus never said that He did not come to bring peace, but to bring a sword of division, either.



No, I'm actually making statements about gay people in general, you just can't take them as general statements and have to take them personally so you can feel justified in lashing out at others for "villifying" you, when that is actually not what is happening.

You believe that you are telling me what God has said. I don't believe that God has said any of this. You are saying it, but God never said it. We have a fundamental disagreement here about the source of what you are saying.

 

[Ohioprof]

Ya know it's funny. Most people I have terrible arguments with when we first meet, I later actually become friends with. LOL

Yeah, me too. But people who care about things, who care about how they live, are usually people I like, whether I agree with them or not. I respect and admire many people who post here because they care about their faith and how they live. They are not just riding along in life; they look inward, and they try to figure out how to life a moral life, a good life. And even when I disagree with them, I admire that.

 

[Ohioprof]

I have to go now and pick up my daughter and go to the calling hours for my friend who passed away on Monday. This has been such a sad week for us. I will miss my friend so very, very much.

Take care.

 

[walloffire]

Buckle your safety belt

 

[Zecryphon]

LOL!

I recall there being a whole series of lightbulb jokes about nearly every denomination. They are terrific, because they capture what is distinct about each one.

I know but I'm pretty certain the the Lutefisk jokes are Lutheran specific. LOL In case you don't know what Lutefisk is, here is a brief description of a substance more hellish than brimstone! I blame Lutefisk for global warming. LOL

From the Wikipedia entry on Lutefisk:

Lutefisk is made from air-dried whitefish (normally cod, but ling is also used), prepared with lye, in a sequence of particular treatments. The first treatment is to soak the stockfish in cold water for five to six days (with the water changed daily). The saturated stockfish is then soaked in an unchanged solution of cold water and lye for an additional two days. The fish will swell during this soaking, attaining an even larger size than in its original (undried) state, while its protein content decreases by more than 50 percent, producing its famous jelly-like consistency. When this treatment is finished, the fish (saturated with lye) has a pH value of 11–12, and is therefore caustic. To make the fish edible, a final treatment of yet another four to six days of soaking in cold water (also changed daily) is needed. Eventually, the lutefisk is ready to be cooked.
In Finland, the traditional reagent used is birch ash. It contains high amounts of potassium carbonate and hydrocarbonate, giving the fish more mellow treatment than sodium hydroxide (lyestone). It is important not to incubate the fish too long in the lye, because saponification of the fish fats may occur, effectively rendering the fish fats into soap. The term for such spoiled fish in Finnish is saippuakala (soap fish).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutefisk

 

[Zecryphon]

You believe that you are telling me what God has said. I don't believe that God has said any of this. You are saying it, but God never said it. We have a fundamental disagreement here about the source of what you are saying.

"You believe that you are telling me what God has said. I don't believe that God has said any of this."

Yes but your disbelief of that statement does not prove that statement false or invalidate it. It's like if I didn't believe that eighteen-wheeler tractor trailers were dangerous would kill me if I got hit by one. Does that mean I should go stand in front of one on the freeway? My disbelief doesn't change anything in this scenario. Your disbelief is simply not enough to prove what is written in the Bible is false. You need something more.

"You are saying it, but God never said it."

You know you can't prove a negative statement, so there is no way for you to prove that statement. But once again, simply saying it doesn't make what you're saying automatically true.

"We have a fundamental disagreement here about the source of what you are saying."

Yep and you can't present anything to prove that what you are saying is true.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I have to go now and pick up my daughter and go to the calling hours for my friend who passed away on Monday. This has been such a sad week for us. I will miss my friend so very, very much.

Take care.

I hope your friend had accepted Jesus Christ as her Saviour.

 

[Ave Maria]

You believe the Bible don't you? Well, the Bible says that practicing homosexuals are living in sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, 5 practicing homosexuals, 6 6:10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, 7 and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 1:8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 1:9 realizing that law 11 is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 1:10 sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, 12 kidnappers, liars, perjurers – in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You believe the Bible don't you? Well, the Bible says that practicing homosexuals are living in sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, 5 practicing homosexuals, 6 6:10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, 7 and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 1:8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 1:9 realizing that law 11 is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 1:10 sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, 12 kidnappers, liars, perjurers – in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching.

*lmao* is that what the ORIGINAL GREEK says?

I think not...

 

[Ave Maria]

*lmao* is that what the ORIGINAL GREEK says?

I think not...

Ok, then tell us exactly what the original Greek says. Oh and the NET Bible is a very accurate translation of the Greek and Hebrew in the Bible.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Ok, then tell us exactly what the original Greek says. Oh and the NET Bible is a very accurate translation of the Greek and Hebrew in the Bible.

She's referring to the word 'arsenkoites' which is translated into 'homosexual offenders' (kjv) in the corinthians passage. The term arsenkoites is a compound word which is not documented to have been used prior to the writings of paul, so there is some discrepancy in the actual definition of the word. The words separate are arsen and koite and specifically mean 'man' and 'many beds'.

 

[Ave Maria]

She's referring to the word 'arsenkoites' which is translated into 'homosexual offenders' (kjv) in the corinthians passage. The term arsenkoites is a compound word which is not documented to have been used prior to the writings of paul, so there is some discrepancy in the actual definition of the word. The words separate are arsen and koite and specifically mean 'man' and 'many beds'.

I trust the Bible translation of the word arsenokoites. But then again, I believe the Bible to be infallible.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I trust the Bible translation of the word arsenokoites. But then again, I believe the Bible to be infallible.

There is discrepancy in translations, which is one of the reasons why there are so many different bible versions of the same manuscripts. Just because scripture is God inspired does not necessarily mean that a person translating it is. This is the reason why it is good to have a reference work that goes into some of the more debatable translations with a little bit of insight so that the reader can have a better understanding. The reason why there are key differences in translations also is because some words have multiple definitions, so it is up to the translator to decide which word is put into the passage.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

my apologies, its the NIV that translates it to homosexual offenders.

heres an example:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV) Public Domain



9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)


9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.



1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)

New American Standard Bible (NASB) Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995


9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God.


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (Darby Translation)

Darby Translation (DARBY) Public Domain


9Do ye not know that unrighteous [persons] shall not inherit [the] kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men,
10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor abusive persons, nor [the] rapacious, shall inherit [the] kingdom of God.

 

[Ave Maria]

my apologies, its the NIV that translates it to homosexual offenders.

heres an example:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV) Public Domain



9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)


9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.



1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)

New American Standard Bible (NASB) Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995


9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God.


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (Darby Translation)

Darby Translation (DARBY) Public Domain


9Do ye not know that unrighteous [persons] shall not inherit [the] kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men,
10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor abusive persons, nor [the] rapacious, shall inherit [the] kingdom of God.

Regardless of the wording of the translation, it is obvious that the Bible is referring to homsexuality in some form or another. Therefore, homosexuality is wrong and your argument is bunk.