Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
then dont say it.. we cartianly arent saying that.

Then cease misrepresenting us when we have clearly told you our position.

Please stick to explaining your position ... ie So if some Unitarians in your faith tradition choose to bow down to Jesus, how does your religious community not bow down to anyone??

I will continue to say what I think. You can continue to insist that your denigration of our love is not a vilification of gay people, but it is vilification of us. You are wrong about this.

 

[Ohioprof]

Imagine I said to people that Christian worship is a sin and an abomination. But I don't vilify Christians, just the worship acts they commit with each other.

Listen to how that sounds. Is it a vilification of Christians? Of course it is. Now substitute gay people for Christians, and you'll see how saying that our love relationships are sin is indeed a vilification of gay people.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

There is a distinction to be made between the church body as a whole and individuals within the church body.

Ok fair enough, thanks, but that leaves me thinking if some of those who make up your community do bow down then your community is not united on belief and practice, it must be united on some other principles.

I am not misrepresenting you. I am telling you what your comments actually do, in fact. They denigrate our love. And who is this "us" you keep referring to?

No that’s not our comments, our comments concern same-sex sex not love. Please stop misrepresenting us.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ah now we are getting somehere..

Imagine I said to people that Christian worship is a sin and an abomination. But I don't vilify Christians, just the worship acts they commit with each other.

Exactly its not vilification of Christians its vilification of Christian worship, I am a Christian who worships, I am not a worship, worship is something I do.

Now substitute gay people for Christians, and you'll see how saying that our love relationships are sin is indeed a vilification of gay people.

Your sexual relatiosnhips are sinful, you are a gay person not a sex act.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ah now we are getting somehere..
Exactly its not vilification of Christians its vilification of Christian worship, I am a Christian who worships, I am not a worship, worship is something I do.
Your sexual relatiosnhips are sinful, you are a gay person not a sex act.

I as a Christian would take such denigration of our worship as a denigration of Christians, because worship is an essential part of being a Christian, in my view. I would take deep offense if people started saying that our worship is an "abomination." Yes, worship is what we do, but it's an expression of who we are and what we believe.

Similarly, having a love relationship with a chosen spouse is an expression of who gay people are. Not all gay people have a spouse; I do not. But to tell me that having a love relationship, which you take for granted for yourself, is an "abomination" is deeply offensive, and it is a denigration of gay people, no less than calling Christian worship an "abomination" is deeply offensive and a denigration of Christians.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ah now we are getting somehere..
Exactly its not vilification of Christians its vilification of Christian worship, I am a Christian who worships, I am not a worship, worship is something I do.
Your sexual relatiosnhips are sinful, you are a gay person not a sex act.

I am a gay person, and gay people, like all people, love. We love our spouses. Please stop focusing on "sex acts." The issue is not "sex acts." The issue here is how Christians treat gay people, by either denigrating our love relationships or accepting our love relationships. Obviously, accepting and honoring our love relationships is the right thing for all Christians to do. It's the respectful thing to do, and it is what Jesus would do.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

I am a gay person, and gay people, like all people, love.

Ah but love isnt sex, I have been referring to sex not love.

Please stop focusing on "sex acts." The issue is not "sex acts."

The issue is sex acts, not love, that’s exactly what the issue is. Love is not sex I don’t sex chocolate. Nor am I a sex act. As I said it is vilification of acts not people. You point blank refuse to acknowledge I am a Christian who worships, I am not ‘a worship’, worship is something I do. Same sex acts are sinful, you are a gay person not a sex act.

The issue here is how Christians treat gay people, by either denigrating our love relationships or accepting our love relationships.

Then I suggest the problem lies with gay people who cant distinguish between sex an love.

Obviously, accepting and honoring our love relationships is the right thing for all Christians to do. It's the respectful thing to do, and it is what Jesus would do.

Which Jesus, yours or mine? My Jesus, whose testimony is in the Bible speaks against same-sex sex, he teaches we must love all people.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ah but love isnt sex, I have been referring to sex not love.
The issue is sex acts, not love, that’s exactly what the issue is. Love is not sex I don’t sex chocolate. Nor am I a sex act. As I said it is vilification of acts not people. You point blank refuse to acknowledge I am a Christian who worships, I am not ‘a worship’, worship is something I do. Same sex acts are sinful, you are a gay person not a sex act.

Then I suggest the problem lies with gay people who cant distinguish between sex an love.
Which Jesus, yours or mine? My Jesus, whose testimony is in the Bible speaks against same-sex sex, he teaches we must love all people.

Why do you keep focusing on "sex acts," which you imagine other people engaging in? Love between spouses includes sexual intimacy, but love is so much more than that. It's commitment and caring and support and raising a family together. Sexual intimacy is just one small part of same-sex marriages.

Anyhow, I have to get off to class now. I'll catch you later, Phinny. Have a wonderful day.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Dear Ohioprof,
Ah but love isnt sex, I have been referring to sex not love.
The issue is sex acts, not love, that’s exactly what the issue is. Love is not sex I don’t sex chocolate. Nor am I a sex act. As I said it is vilification of acts not people. You point blank refuse to acknowledge I am a Christian who worships, I am not ‘a worship’, worship is something I do. Same sex acts are sinful, you are a gay person not a sex act.

Then I suggest the problem lies with gay people who cant distinguish between sex an love.
Which Jesus, yours or mine? My Jesus, whose testimony is in the Bible speaks against same-sex sex, he teaches we must love all people.

Why do you keep focusing on "sex acts,"

because my God’s purposes is not for sex outside marriage and including same-sex acts. There is no problem with love. You keep referring to love as inclusive of sex as though the two are inseparable.

Anyhow, I have to get off to class now. I'll catch you later, Phinny. Have a wonderful day.

Thanks my friend, you too J

 

[Zecryphon]

I stand by what I said previously said. Saying that our love is a sin is vilification of us. That's what I think, and I stand by it.

You are not the only "us" in these forums, my friend. There is also an "us" that consists of gay people, and your posts denigrate our love. That's the truth.

Please stop referring to "the sexual acts" that we supposedly "commit" with each other. Our loves lives are none of your business. They are part of our love relationships. We do not "commit" sexual acts; we express our love for each other, the same as heterosexuals do. Again, how we love each is none of your business. It's not for you to judge, so stop it.

"I stand by what I said previously said. Saying that our love is a sin is vilification of us. That's what I think, and I stand by it."

Good for you. It's a total misrepresentation of what is actually being said though, and you using that misrepresenation as a basis for falsely accusing your opposition is dishonest.

"You are not the only "us" in these forums, my friend. There is also an "us" that consists of gay people, and your posts denigrate our love. That's the truth."

I clearly made the distinction in my last post between the "us" that opposes homosexual sex and myself. You must have missed that, because we both know you don't misrepresent what people say here. LOL For the last time no one is talking about your love, that I can see. What I see people addressing is the act of same-sex sex.

"Please stop referring to "the sexual acts" that we supposedly "commit" with each other. Our loves lives are none of your business."

Am I talking about you and your partner specifically when I make a post about the sin that is same-sex sex? No, I am not. I am speaking in general terms. If you take those statements personally, that is a misapplication of what is being said.

"They are part of our love relationships. We do not "commit" sexual acts;"

You're seriously putting forth the assertion that you do not have sex with each other or "make love"?

"we express our love for each other, the same as heterosexuals do."

First you say that we can't address homosexuality as a sin, because that's an orientation and the Bible never talks about sexual orientations and Jesus never condemned the orientation of being gay. Okay, we concede that and then we focus on same-sex sex as being the sin and you demand we stop talking about it. Exactly what is it you wish to discuss in a forum designed to debate homosexuality? Oh I know, how we should all just put aside any discussion of sin and just get along in peace and fellowship. If you want fellowship go to another forum, this is a debate forum. We debate here and the topic of debate for this forum is homosexuality and all that goes along with it, INCLUDING gay sex.

"Again, how we love each is none of your business."

I haven't asked for specifics about how you and your life partner make love have I? No, I haven't so I'm not making your bedroom antics the topic of discussion. Keep throwing those false accusations out there and I'll keep blowing 'em out of the water. I can do this all day long.

"It's not for you to judge, so stop it."

I haven't judged. I have agreed with God's judgment of it. There is a difference. Maybe one day you'll see it. And since you claim to be a Christian I am free to judge your behavior as a member of the body of Christ. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. We are to judge each other and expel unrepentant sinners from the body when necessary. God judges those outside of the body of Christ.

 

[Ohioprof]

Good for you. It's a total misrepresentation of what is actually being said though, and you using that misrepresenation as a basis for falsely accusing your opposition is dishonest.



I clearly made the distinction in my last post between the "us" that opposes homosexual sex and myself. You must have missed that, because we both know you don't misrepresent what people say here. LOL For the last time no one is talking about your love, that I can see. What I see people addressing is the act of same-sex sex.



Am I talking about you and your partner specifically when I make a post about the sin that is same-sex sex? No, I am not. I am speaking in general terms. If you take those statements personally, that is a misapplication of what is being said.



You're seriously putting forth the assertion that you do not have sex with each other or "make love"?



First you say that we can't address homosexuality as a sin, because that's an orientation and the Bible never talks about sexual orientations and Jesus never condemned the orientation of being gay. Okay, we concede that and then we focus on same-sex sex as being the sin and you demand we stop talking about it. Exactly what is it you wish to discuss in a forum designed to debate homosexuality? Oh I know, how we should all just put aside any discussion of sin and just get along in peace and fellowship. If you want fellowship go to another forum, this is a debate forum. We debate here and the topic of debate for this forum is homosexuality and all that goes along with it, INCLUDING gay sex.



I haven't asked for specifics about how you and your life partner make love have I? No, I haven't so I'm not making your bedroom antics the topic of discussion. Keep throwing those false accusations out there and I'll keep blowing 'em out of the water. I can do this all day long.



I haven't judged. I have agreed with God's judgment of it. There is a difference. Maybe one day you'll see it. And since you claim to be a Christian I am free to judge your behavior as a member of the body of Christ. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. We are to judge each other and expel unrepentant sinners from the body when necessary. God judges those outside of the body of Christ.

You claim to be agreeing with God, but really you are just attributing your beliefs about gay people to God. God has never denigrated our love, and you shouldn't either.

Why do you presume that you know the mind of God and can speak for God? I am frankly stunned that some people posting here claim that they know what God thinks of other people and that they speak for God. Of course that's nonsense.

I do not have a life partner. I am single. I do take it personally when you make statements about me. And you are making statements about me, because I am gay. I am gay whether I have sex or not, and I am gay whether I have a partner or not.

You should not go around saying that same-sex relationships are sin, because they are not. To judge other people's relationships is the sin, and it's especially a sin to attribute one's own prejudices to God.

 

[walloffire]

You claim to be agreeing with God, but really you are just attributing your beliefs about gay people to God. God has never denigrated our love, and you shouldn't either.

lust, not love. He has denigrated your lust. When you say "love" do you mean agape love, phileo love, eros love, or storge love?

 

[Zecryphon]

You claim to be agreeing with God, but really you are just attributing your beliefs about gay people to God. God has never denigrated our love, and you shouldn't either.

Why do you presume that you know the mind of God and can speak for God? I am frankly stunned that some people posting here claim that they know what God thinks of other people and that they speak for God. Of course that's nonsense.

I do not have a life partner. I am single. I do take it personally when you make statements about me. And you are making statements about me, because I am gay. I am gay whether I have sex or not, and I am gay whether I have a partner or not.


You should not go around saying that same-sex relationships are sin, because they are not. To judge other people's relationships is the sin, and it's especially a sin to attribute one's own prejudices to God.

"You claim to be agreeing with God, but really you are just attributing your beliefs about gay people to God."

If I asked you to provide proof for your statement here, would you? Or would you accuse me of ordering you around and command me to stop telling you what to do? Let's see.

"God has never denigrated our love, and you shouldn't either."

We're not. You're right God has not denigrated your love, whatever the hell that means. He has declared that same-sex sexual relations are an abomination. You can dress up your same-sex sex in nice and pretty language like "love that happens within a committed relationship", but what you're really doing is finding ways to justify yourself to others, who have the audacity to tell you you are commiting the sin of adultery.

"Why do you presume that you know the mind of God and can speak for God?"

The Holy Spirit has revealed to me and to all other Christians that the Bible is the written word of God to mankind. His divine revelation about Himself to us. We base our statements upon those scriptures. I am not speaking for God, that is yet another false claim by you about what I am doing. I am relating what God has plainly said.

"I am frankly stunned that some people posting here claim that they know what God thinks of other people and that they speak for God. Of course that's nonsense."

No one has claimed to speak FOR God. What people have done is tell you what God has revealed in His written word. You apparently can't tell the difference between the two behaviors and have to falsely accuse people of things they have not done.

"I do not have a life partner. I am single. I do take it personally when you make statements about me."

Okay, you don't have a life partner. That is the only personal statement I have made about you.

"And you are making statements about me, because I am gay."

I am making statements about homosexuals in general, they are not targetted at you specifically. How can you even attempt to discuss or debate this issue if you are going to take everything that is said personally?

"I am gay whether I have sex or not, and I am gay whether I have a partner or not."

No one is claiming otherwise.

"You should not go around saying that same-sex relationships are sin, because they are not."

Why not? God has revealed to me that that is the truth. Why should I allow myself to be silenced by someone who spends her days thinking up false accusations to hit me with, because I dare to present an opposing view in a forum dedicated to the debate of homosexuality and all it's aspects.

"To judge other people's relationships is the sin, and it's especially a sin to attribute one's own prejudices to God."

And you know that to be a sin how? I mean since according to you, the Bible is not God's written word to mankind, but rather man's ideas about what God is like, I don't see how you can make that assertion or prove it in any way that would be consistent with what you belive to be true. It wouldn't be a sin, that's God's word for disobeying His commands. It would be "not a good idea" or "a mistake" perhaps is the way man would phrase it. God has declared that same-sex sex is a sin. I find it interesting how as a UU your church admits to not having the foggiest conception of who or what God is, but yet you know exactly what He considers sin and what He does not consider sin. Isn't it interesting how the god you conceive of in your imgagination just happens to like all the things you like and hate all the things you hate?

 

[walloffire]

UU = byoG

Let's go get our worship on! Its like a god disco

 

[Ohioprof]

lust, not love. He has denigrated your lust. When you say "love" do you mean agape love, phileo love, eros love, or storge love?

I am talking about the love between two spouses.

 

[Ohioprof]

UU = byoG

Let's go get our worship on! Its like a god disco

There are quite a few jokes about UUs. We do have a sense of humor, so long as the jokes are not intended to be hurtful.

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness and a UU?

Answer: Someone who comes to your door for no apparent reason.

 

[Ohioprof]

If I asked you to provide proof for your statement here, would you? Or would you accuse me of ordering you around and command me to stop telling you what to do? Let's see.



We're not. You're right God has not denigrated your love, whatever the hell that means. He has declared that same-sex sexual relations are an abomination. You can dress up your same-sex sex in nice and pretty language like "love that happens within a committed relationship", but what you're really doing is finding ways to justify yourself to others, who have the audacity to tell you you are commiting the sin of adultery.



The Holy Spirit has revealed to me and to all other Christians that the Bible is the written word of God to mankind. His divine revelation about Himself to us. We base our statements upon those scriptures. I am not speaking for God, that is yet another false claim by you about what I am doing. I am relating what God has plainly said.



No one has claimed to speak FOR God. What people have done is tell you what God has revealed in His written word. You apparently can't tell the difference between the two behaviors and have to falsely accuse people of things they have not done.



Okay, you don't have a life partner. That is the only personal statement I have made about you.



I am making statements about homosexuals in general, they are not targetted at you specifically. How can you even attempt to discuss or debate this issue if you are going to take everything that is said personally?



No one is claiming otherwise.

"You should not go around saying that same-sex relationships are sin, because they are not."

Why not? God has revealed to me that that is the truth. Why should I allow myself to be silenced by someone who spends her days thinking up false accusations to hit me with, because I dare to present an opposing view in a forum dedicated to the debate of homosexuality and all it's aspects.



And you know that to be a sin how? I mean since according to you, the Bible is not God's written word to mankind, but rather man's ideas about what God is like, I don't see how you can make that assertion or prove it in any way that would be consistent with what you belive to be true. It wouldn't be a sin, that's God's word for disobeying His commands. It would be "not a good idea" or "a mistake" perhaps is the way man would phrase it. God has declared that same-sex sex is a sin. I find it interesting how as a UU your church admits to not having the foggiest conception of who or what God is, but yet you know exactly what He considers sin and what He does not consider sin. Isn't it interesting how the god you conceive of in your imgagination just happens to like all the things you like and hate all the things you hate?

I have falsely accused no one. I stand by everything I have said. You claim to speak for God, and you speak only your personal beliefs. You claim to know what God wants, and you don't. You claim that God calls same-sex love "sin," and God does not say anything of the kind.

Sin is doing harm to others. By denigrating the love of gay people, you do harm to gay people and to gay families. If you want to rely on the words of Jesus, think about how you are judging gay people. Jesus would never do that.

When you make statements about gay people in general, you are making statements about me, as I am a gay person.

 

[walloffire]

OhioProf...

God always does what is best for us, right?

 

[walloffire]

And, is there an "objective" best or an "objective" better?

 

[Zecryphon]

There are quite a few jokes about UUs. We do have a sense of humor, so long as the jokes are not intended to be hurtful.

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness and a UU?

Answer: Someone who comes to your door for no apparent reason.

Since we're telling jokes about our religions. Heres' one for Lutherans.

Joke: How many Lutherans does it take to change a lightbulb?

Punchline: Change???