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Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

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Jet_A_Jockey

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The issue here, as I see it, is not whether we are Christians or not. It doesn't matter if we are Christians; we are gay whatever faith we embrace.
The topic lies within a christian theology debate forum, however. With that in mind, the only way to effectively debate is to have an agreeable baseline to begin upon.

The issue to me is why so many Christians keep insisting that gay people stop being how God made us. Why do they keep telling us that we can and must grow another leg or end up in a fiery lake? These demands leave gay people with nowhere to go. We are told we must do the impossible or be condemned. Why? Because some people point at the Bible and claim that it's God's will that we somehow become what we are not. It's impossible. Their demand is absurd, frankly. And it makes no sense to me as a gay person.
Many of God's demands could be seen as absurd.
You state that gays are born gay, and I've yet to see the evidence supporting it. That statement is what you base the rest of your argument on, so it would be good to be able to defend it.
 
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Brieuse

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The topic lies within a christian theology debate forum, however. With that in mind, the only way to effectively debate is to have an agreeable baseline to begin upon.

Many of God's demands could be seen as absurd.
You state that gays are born gay, and I've yet to see the evidence supporting it. That statement is what you base the rest of your argument on, so it would be good to be able to defend it.
There is overwhelming evidence pointing to it.
 
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Ohioprof

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You're almost there. The UUA is not a Christian association or denomination and they don't try and self-identify as one.



Faith in what? Science, evolution, innate goodness of man? Faith in whom? God? Jesus? Buddha? Allah? Vishnu or any one of the other 300 million gods that Hinduism has?



We're going to have to agree to disagree on this and I disagree vehemently with this statement. You can not be a UU and be a Christian at the same time. As a UU you're basically asserting that there are many ways to Heaven. This is refuted in the scriptures by Jesus Himself. See John 14:6. It is not possible to deny that scripture, which UU's must if they are searching for the many paths to Heaven, and be a Christian.



They're not Christians as to be a UU, you have to deny the central teachings of the Christian faith.

We Unitarian Universalists are free to embrace Christianity if we choose to. Many UUs are Christian. I am a UU Christian. UUs can embrace whatever Christian tenets we choose. You suggest in your post that UUs don't allow for the belief in Christian doctrine, but this is not true. Our faith tradition allows people to embrace whatever doctrine they want individually. Our church does not require that people embrace a doctrine, and we have no theological doctrine as a church. But individual UUs can embrace Christian doctrine or any other doctrine if they choose to do so. Individual UUs can worship God freely, as we choose. Our faith tradition imposes no image or conception of God on our members. Our members worship God as we conceive of God.
 
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RMDY

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Please do not talk down to me about my own faith tradition. I know more about what it means to be a UU than you do, since I have been a UU for many years. I know what I am talking about when it comes to my faith tradition. Let me speak for me and my faith, please, and stop talking down to me.

We Unitarian Universalists are free to embrace Christianity if we choose to. Many UUs are Christian. I am a UU Christian. UUs can embrace whatever Christian tenets we choose. You suggest in your post that UUs don't allow for the belief in Christian doctrine, but this is not true. Our faith tradition allows people to embrace whatever doctrine they want individually. Our church does not require that people embrace a doctrine, and we have no theological doctrine as a church. But individual UUs can embrace Christian doctrine or any other doctrine if they choose to do so.

I love it how you embrace Christ without embracing the resurrection.
 
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walloffire

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I do not focus on his death or on what may have happened afterwards. I do not believe in a literal resurrection, as I have said.

Between that and your promotion of sexual sin, it is quite obvious you aren't saved. Repent and believe the gospel, don't interpret it, believe it.
 
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RMDY

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Between that and your promotion of sexual sin, it is quite obvious you aren't saved. Repent and believe the gospel, don't interpret it, believe it.

I'd have given you rep points if your profile allowed it for saying this.
 
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Zecryphon

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We Unitarian Universalists are free to embrace Christianity if we choose to. Many UUs are Christian. I am a UU Christian. UUs can embrace whatever Christian tenets we choose. You suggest in your post that UUs don't allow for the belief in Christian doctrine, but this is not true. Our faith tradition allows people to embrace whatever doctrine they want individually. Our church does not require that people embrace a doctrine, and we have no theological doctrine as a church. But individual UUs can embrace Christian doctrine or any other doctrine if they choose to do so. Individual UUs can worship God freely, as we choose. Our faith tradition imposes no image or conception of God on our members. Our members worship God as we conceive of God.
"We Unitarian Universalists are free to embrace Christianity if we choose to."

What does embracing Christianity mean?

"Many UUs are Christian. I am a UU Christian."

Your own statements prove otherwise.

"UUs can embrace whatever Christian tenets we choose."

Christianity is not a pick and choose religion like Hinduism or Masonry. There are set beliefs, set teachings that you must confess in order to be a Christian. You must confess Jesus Christ is Lord, crucified for your sins, risen from the dead to bring salvation to all who repent and call upon His name by the power of the Holy Spirit to be saved from God's wrath for our sins that we have committed against God. I have yet to see you affirm any of this.

"You suggest in your post that UUs don't allow for the belief in Christian doctrine, but this is not true. Our faith tradition allows people to embrace whatever doctrine they want individually."

You may allow that. Christianity on the other hand does not allow that. For instance, a Christian can not embrace the doctrine of reincarnation as support for such a doctrine is not found anywhere in the Christian scriptures.

"Our church does not require that people embrace a doctrine, and we have no theological doctrine as a church."

Then you're not even really a church. As a church has been defined as a group of believers. Your beliefs vary from member to member, so when you guys get together just who or what is it you're worshipping? And why do you feel the need to even come together at all if it's such an individualized faith?

"But individual UUs can embrace Christian doctrine or any other doctrine if they choose to do so."

Sure they could, doesn't make them a Christian though, even though they choose to self-identify as one.

"Individual UUs can worship God freely, as we choose. Our faith tradition imposes no image or conception of God on our members. Our members worship God as we conceive of God."

New Age religion at it's finest, Christianity not at all.
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear Ohioprof,
If you want to become a Christian today please go here
http://foru.ms/faq.php?faq=gospel#faq_christian
if you believe you can say the prayer
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”

Bless you
 
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Zecryphon

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Dear Ohioprof,
If you want to become a Christian today please go here
http://foru.ms/faq.php?faq=gospel#faq_christian
if you believe you can say the prayer
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”

Bless you
Phineas, reading or saying that prayer will not save her. Personally I don't like using "sinner's prayers" like that one because I feel like we are leading the witness. Only true confession, true repentance and true faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, will save a person. These things will only happen by the power of the Holy Spirit working in her life. When the Holy Spirit works in her life and she sees herself as God sees her, then and only then will she see the need for a savior. When she gets to that point the Holy Spirit will give her utterance and let her know what she needs to repent of before God.


Based upon everything she has said in this thread and others I have concluded that she does not believe she is a sinner. She does not believe that the Bible is God's word. Therefore it does not contain God's laws, but it does contain what men think God's laws should be. Since it does not contain God's laws, she can't have broken those laws since He didn't actually give any and therefore she does not need a savior, because she is not a sinner. So why she chooses to embrace Christianity, while denying the central tenets of Christian faith, I have no idea. If she were to pray that prayer now, in her current state, the only thing that would be produced is another false convert to Christianity. We have enough of those as it is. I understand what you're trying to do and it's admirable, but it's also out of our hands. God is in control here. He will work in her as He sees fit. In all things, even her salvation, we must trust Him above all else.
 
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Ohioprof

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The topic lies within a christian theology debate forum, however. With that in mind, the only way to effectively debate is to have an agreeable baseline to begin upon.

Many of God's demands could be seen as absurd.
You state that gays are born gay, and I've yet to see the evidence supporting it. That statement is what you base the rest of your argument on, so it would be good to be able to defend it.
There is no requirement that people posting here adhere to any particular doctrine. If you'd prefer not to discuss with me because we do not share certain assumptions about our respective faiths, that's fine with me, though I enjoy discussing with you and would miss that.

I did not say that we are born gay. I said we simply are gay, and that is how God made us. Whether we are born gay or are born with a genetic predisposition to be gay or with hormonal influences in utero that make us become gay, I don't know. I don't presume to know how or when our respective sexual orientations, whether gay, heterosexual, or bisexual, start to manifest themselves.

I do know that I did not choose to be gay, and I cannot stop being gay, because it's part of who I am. Imagine people started telling you to stop being heterosexual. How would you do that? You could divorce your wife and stop living in a heterosexual relationship, but you'd still be heterosexual. It's part of who you are. The same is true for me as a gay person. It's just part of who I am. I have no desire either to stop being gay, because I like how I am, how God made me. I enjoy being the person I am, and there's nothing wrong with being who I am. I do not understand why some folks, and I don't mean you, make it a mission in their lives to try to get gay people to be other than the way God made us.
 
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Ohioprof

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Between that and your promotion of sexual sin, it is quite obvious you aren't saved. Repent and believe the gospel, don't interpret it, believe it.
I do not promote "sexual sin." I promote people accepting gay people as we are and not judging us negatively for being how God made us.

I believe that I, like everyone else, am saved. I see nothing to repent from. And I am not going to believe blindly in something just because you order me to. I don't believe what you believe. Why is that so hard for you to accept?
 
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Ohioprof

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What does embracing Christianity mean?



Your own statements prove otherwise.



Christianity is not a pick and choose religion like Hinduism or Masonry. There are set beliefs, set teachings that you must confess in order to be a Christian. You must confess Jesus Christ is Lord, crucified for your sins, risen from the dead to bring salvation to all who repent and call upon His name by the power of the Holy Spirit to be saved from God's wrath for our sins that we have committed against God. I have yet to see you affirm any of this.



You may allow that. Christianity on the other hand does not allow that. For instance, a Christian can not embrace the doctrine of reincarnation as support for such a doctrine is not found anywhere in the Christian scriptures.



Then you're not even really a church. As a church has been defined as a group of believers. Your beliefs vary from member to member, so when you guys get together just who or what is it you're worshipping? And why do you feel the need to even come together at all if it's such an individualized faith?



Sure they could, doesn't make them a Christian though, even though they choose to self-identify as one.



New Age religion at it's finest, Christianity not at all.
Unitarian Universalism is certainly not "New Age." Unitarianism in America goes back to the 18th century, and that part of our faith tradition descended directly from Puritanism. Universalism in America goes back to the 19th century. Our faith tradition has certainly changed over the years, but it is an old faith tradition, and it cannot accurately be labeled New Age. Harvard Divinity School started as a Unitarian divinity school. Several American Presidents have been Unitarians.

I have said that UUs are free to believe in Christian doctrine and to be Christian if we choose. You continue to doubt this, but it's true. UUs can believe in a literal resurrection in the the truth of the Bible if they want to, and some do believe that. We do not have any rule saying that people are free to follow their own spiritual path except the path of Christianity. For a Unitarian Universalist, embracing Christianity can mean whatever the individual thinks it means.

You may believe that there are "set beliefs" that all Christians must adhere to, and I disagree with you about that. The fact that there are no such "set beliefs" is why we have so many Christian sects. We had a Protestant Reformation as a revolt within Christianity against "set beliefs." I think one of the great features of Christianity is the fact that we are such a diverse faith, with people of many different beliefs within our faith.
 
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Ohioprof

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Dear Ohioprof,
If you want to become a Christian today please go here
http://foru.ms/faq.php?faq=gospel#faq_christian
if you believe you can say the prayer
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”

Bless you
I already am a Christian. And I pray as I choose, not as you wish I would pray.

This morning I spoke this prayer:

Dear God,

Thank you for this glorious day and for the blessing of my wonderful, precious daughter. Thank you for my dad, and bless his spirit now in heaven. Thank you for the many wonderful friends that we enjoy in our lives and for the opportunity to share our lives and the bounty you have given us.

Please bless the spirit of my dear friend who is with you in heaven. Hold her in the light, in your love that is beyond our human understanding. Bless her dear family in their time of grief. Bless our community in our grief, and help us to carry forward our dear friend's vision of a better world.

Amen.

That was my prayer this morning.
 
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Zecryphon

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Unitarian Universalism is certainly not "New Age." Unitarianism in America goes back to the 18th century, and that part of our faith tradition descended directly from Puritanism. Universalism in America goes back to the 19th century. Our faith tradition has certainly changed over the years, but it is an old faith tradition, and it cannot accurately be labeled New Age. Harvard Divinity School started as a Unitarian divinity school. Several American Presidents have been Unitarians.

I have said that UUs are free to believe in Christian doctrine and to be Christian if we choose. You continue to doubt this, but it's true. UUs can believe in a literal resurrection in the the truth of the Bible if they want to, and some do believe that. We do not have any rule saying that people are free to follow their own spiritual path except the path of Christianity. For a Unitarian Universalist, embracing Christianity can mean whatever the individual thinks it means.

You may believe that there are "set beliefs" that all Christians must adhere to, and I disagree with you about that. The fact that there are no such "set beliefs" is why we have so many Christian sects. We had a Protestant Reformation as a revolt within Christianity against "set beliefs." I think one of the great features of Christianity is the fact that we are such a diverse faith, with people of many different beliefs within our faith.
"Unitarian Universalism is certainly not "New Age.""

Oh, don't even try it. I used to study New Age religions and philosophies as well as practice them and New Age as well as secular humanism, Buddhism and Pagan practices and phrases are all over UU. I found a prayer on that site that ends in "blessed be". That is a Pagan finisher. You will never hear that recited in a Christian church, nor will you ever hear that recited by a Christian person.

"Unitarianism in America goes back to the 18th century, and that part of our faith tradition descended directly from Puritanism."

Although you share nothing in common with Puritans. I've heard the words of Puritans speaking on Christianity and let's just say it's a night and day difference.

"Universalism in America goes back to the 19th century. Our faith tradition has certainly changed over the years, but it is an old faith tradition, and it cannot accurately be labeled New Age."

It can be accurately described as New Age, Pagan, Buddhist, and almost anything else under the sun. It can not be called Christianity in any sense of the word. Here is a meditation I found on a UUA website. This is grounded in New Age spirituality.

Tess Baumberger

Crystal of Creation

If there is a heaven, it is right here, right now,
in this particular arrangement of nature,
this happening of earth, moon, and star,
this constellation of instants,
this laden moment,
this flash of recognition,
this particle of time.

If there is a god, it is all around us, everywhere,
in every blinking eye,
in every pulsing possibility,
in every ugliness, every beauty,
in every wholeness, every part.
If there is an axiom in the universe
it is life,
it is love,
it is death,
it is hatred,
it is wanting and needing to be
in this crystal of creation.

Source: Original

Copyright: The author has given Unitarian Universalist Association member congregations permission to reprint this piece for use in public worship. Any reprints must acknowledge the name of the author.
Last updated on Tuesday, August 28, 2007.

"If there is a heaven?" "If there is a god?" These are not statements a Christian would recite or proclaim in any setting. To ask these questions is to deny Christian truths. Christians know for a fact, that there is a God and that there is a heaven.

"Harvard Divinity School started as a Unitarian divinity school. Several American Presidents have been Unitarians."

And how does that make UUA valid as a church body that is in line with Christianity?

"I have said that UUs are free to believe in Christian doctrine and to be Christian if we choose."

If you are a Christian you can not be UU. There is just no way to reconcile the two. You have to deny Christ to be UU. A Christian will not grace a church with their presence if that church accepts the teachings of other faiths as being equally valid to Christianity. They will not go where Paganism, Secular Humanism, Buddhism, etc. is proclaimed as being equal with the truth of God's written word.

You do not believe Christian doctrine is the point. You deny it. You can't deny the very doctrines of a religion and then claim to be a member of that religion. I can't deny Allah is God and Mohammed is his prohpet if I am claiming to be a member of Islam. I can not deny the divine male and female if I am claiming to be a Pagan. It just doesn't work. You can not deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ and be a Christian. From what you have said about Christ, and admiring Him as a human being who taught good things, I would say you a Christfan, before I would say you are a Christian.

"You continue to doubt this, but it's true. UUs can believe in a literal resurrection in the the truth of the Bible if they want to, and some do believe that. We do not have any rule saying that people are free to follow their own spiritual path except the path of Christianity."

You don't have any rules, doctrines, teachings or principles, period. As such you can not claim to be a Christian while denying the basic tenets of the Christian faith. Now of course, you can say whatever you want about yourself, but just saying something does not make it true. I could call myself an elm tree til I'm blue in the face, does that make me an elm tree?

You may believe that there are "set beliefs" that all Christians must adhere to, and I disagree with you about that. The fact that there are no such "set beliefs" is why we have so many Christian sects.

This is not correct. In all sects or denominations of Christianity there is a central truth. That Jesus is Lord and savior of all who call upon His name to be saved by the power of the Holy Spirit. There is no other name under heaven by which men are saved. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Him. All Christian denominations agree upon these truths.

The numerous denominations we see in Christianity today are due to disagreements over secondary issues or doctrines. If there is a disagreement over a primary doctrine, such as there is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ alone. Then the person who denies that can not be said to be a Christian. Such things as Baptism, The Lord's Supper, Infant Baptism, Prayers for the dead, etc. Even things as silly as what color the carpet will be in the main sanctuary have led to church splits. I kid you not. But those are considered secondary issues.

We had a Protestant Reformation as a revolt within Christianity against "set beliefs."

Nope. There was a Reformation, this is true. But it wasn't in protest to there being set beliefs by the Catholic church. It was really about the doctrine of justification by faith alone. That was the central teaching of the Protestant Reformation. It was the selling of indulgences by the Pope for the remission of sins that set Luther off. Luther addressed indulgences and other Papal abuses in his 95 Theses. You should read them if you haven't, and especially before you make a claim like the one you made above.

I think one of the great features of Christianity is the fact that we are such a diverse faith, with people of many different beliefs within our faith.

It's not as diverse as you'd like to think it is. We do not accept any belief under the sun the way UU does. You can claim you're a Christian all you want, but based upon everything you've said and what I've seen of UU from their own websites and resources, I remain unconvinced that a person can be a UU and a Christian at the same time.
 
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Zecryphon

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To show that we are all saved, I think. That's my universalist way of conceiving of death.
"To show that we are all saved, I think. That's my universalist way of conceiving of death."

There is no salvation without Christ's literal resurrection. If Christ was not raised from the dead, He went to the grave as a liar and if that is true, there is no way you can have faith in any promise He made.
 
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