Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[Jet_A_Jockey]

first thing that comes to mind is reception of pain.

 

[Floatingaxe]

you have the right to marry who you want, I don't.

And I would support your right to marry a woman just as much as I support my own. Nothing "special" there.

And yes, I'm thinking about the homosexual act... what specifically about it is perverse or hated by God? Its not exactly self evident, help me out here...

I have the exact rights you have. I can marry a man, and so can you! Wow! I can't marry a woman and neither can you! I can't marry just anyone I want. I can marry only a man. Just like you.

The act is hated by God, as it goes against our nature, and how we were created: for marriage and family--creating new offspring for the family of God. God has plans for every human being, and His plan is for most everyone to marry and produce offspring whom He has planned since before Creation. Homosexuals short-circuit that plan, and those little children that were designed since before the beginning with names and faces--will never be. It shortchanges God!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

first thing that comes to mind is reception of pain.

nuh uh... pain receptors are different to the pressure receptors in question... not to mention the way they track back to the pleasure centres in the brain... try again

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I have the exact rights you have. I can marry a man, and so can you! Wow! I can't marry a woman and neither can you! I can't marry just anyone I want. I can marry only a man. Just like you.

The act is hated by God, as it goes against our nature, and how we were created: for marriage and family--creating new offspring for the family of God. God has plans for every human being, and His plan is for most everyone to marry and produce offspring whom He has planned since before Creation. Homosexuals short-circuit that plan, and those little children that were designed since before the beginning with names and faces--will never be. It shortchanges God!

Well, you should be able to marry a woman if you want to. How is that asking for "special" rights? I'm happy that any adult consenting couple should be able to get married, whats wrong with that?

If the act goes against our nature... then why do we do it?

And what makes you think homosexuals can't have children? I'm sure that if God plans for me to have children, it will happen. I'm just a human, I can't believe anything I would do would "short circuit" God's plan.

So you really think the ability to have children is the only meaningful thing to arise from a relationship?

What about childless heterosexual couples? are they hated by God too?

 

[Floatingaxe]

nuh uh... pain receptors are different to the pressure receptors in question... not to mention the way they track back to the pleasure centres in the brain... try again

I need a barf bag here...

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I need a barf bag here...

Why? because of nerve endings? Geez, sorry to tell you but you've got them too!

Floating Axe has nerve endings! Oh wait, stating a fact like that might be a flame...

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

nuh uh... pain receptors are different to the pressure receptors in question... not to mention the way they track back to the pleasure centres in the brain... try again

Sorry, im not an expert on anatomical function. If you truly believe that there are receptors that are intended to stimulate pleasure in there, then we just have to disagree. However I do agree that when used in its normal purpose of evacuation that there is a feeling of relief, so perhaps that ties in somewhere.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Sorry, im not an expert on anatomical function. If you truly believe that there are receptors that are intended to stimulate pleasure in there, then we just have to disagree. However I do agree that when used in its normal purpose of evacuation that there is a feeling of relief, so perhaps that ties in somewhere.

well, I don't believe that anything is really "intended" for anything anatomically, things evolve with function, but there is no inherrent design...

Yes, I am happy to agree that the primary function of that end of the digestive tract IS waste removal... But, if you ever do study anatomy in any depth you will discover that things rarely only have one function. In fact, I can't think of a single organ in the body that only has one function, so there you go.

 

[Floatingaxe]

If the act goes against our nature... then why do we do it?

Because we are sinful and perverse people. Some more than others. Most people don't cross that line.

And what makes you think homosexuals can't have children? I'm sure that if God plans for me to have children, it will happen. I'm just a human, I can't believe anything I would do would "short circuit" God's plan.

The tragedy is that homosexuals are fertile people who are supposed to have children--for God--in a marriage with the opposite sex, which is as God intends. If you are a Christian, you will stop this aberrant behaviour, get into a Bible-believing church, get yourself a mentor and learn of God and His ways. then He will provide you with a mate to marry and you will then have the chldren that God wants to give you.

Other than that, any children you may create will be outside of the will of God.

So you really think the ability to have children is the only meaningful thing to arise from a relationship?

No, but it is the only lasting treasure that we can take with us to heaven. They are precious gifts from God...nothing better!

What about childless heterosexual couples? are they hated by God too?

Childless normal couples have no shame for being childless, bu they often have to work through disappointment. God is there with His love and compassion to help them through it.

The most wonderful thing is that God heals. He can bring forth fruit in a barren, Christian home--no problem. I have seen it where couples who were medically deemed sterile, had children. Amazing--but these were couples who served God wholeheartedly and lived lives honouring to Him. It is His will that we multiply and provide children for His kingdom..He will make a way where there seems no way!

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

well, I don't believe that anything is really "intended" for anything anatomically, things evolve with function, but there is no inherrent design...

Yes, I am happy to agree that the primary function of that end of the digestive tract IS waste removal... But, if you ever do study anatomy in any depth you will discover that things rarely only have one function. In fact, I can't think of a single organ in the body that only has one function, so there you go.

Does this mean that God intended it for penetration for sexual pleasure? I don't think so.

 

[Miracle Storm]

nuh uh... pain receptors are different to the pressure receptors in question... not to mention the way they track back to the pleasure centres in the brain... try again

I'm sorry, but if my nose is stuffed up and I sneeze and/or blow it I feel relieved.
Just as if I have to use the rest room and I have a bowel movement I feel relief.

There are also many things that bring our body pleasure that could kill us such as drugs..

If I have an itch I scratch it and would experience what you may call "pleasure"

That does not mean that God meant for our "pleasure" receptors to be abused.

Such as someone sticking something in their nose to make themselves sneeze. Normally you wouldn't think of anyone doing that...it seems abnormal. It also seems abnormal for some people to be sticking other things where they don't belong...

 

[Zecryphon]

Because we are sinful and perverse people. Some more than others. Most people don't cross that line.



The tragedy is that homosexuals are fertile people who are supposed to have children--for God--in a marriage with the opposite sex, which is as God intends. If you are a Christian, you will stop this aberrant behaviour, get into a Bible-believing church, get yourself a mentor and learn of God and His ways. then He will provide you with a mate to marry and you will then have the chldren that God wants to give you.

Other than that, any children you may create will be outside of the will of God.



No, but it is the only lasting treasure that we can take with us to heaven. They are precious gifts from God...nothing better!



Childless normal couples have no shame for being childless, bu they often have to work through disappointment. God is there with His love and compassion to help them through it.

The most wonderful thing is that God heals. He can bring forth fruit in a barren, Christian home--no problem. I have seen it where couples who were medically deemed sterile, had children. Amazing--but these were couples who served God wholeheartedly and lived lives honouring to Him. It is His will that we multiply and provide children for His kingdom..He will make a way where there seems no way!

"If you are a Christian, you will stop this aberrant behaviour, get into a Bible-believing church, get yourself a mentor and learn of God and His ways. then He will provide you with a mate to marry and you will then have the chldren that God wants to give you."

Where in the blue hell is that in the Bible? I sympathize with your position and understand your frustration when debating this topic, but ya gotta admit that is a pretty narrow definition of what it means to be a Christian.

I'm in a Bible believing church, learning about God and His ways, where are the children I'm supposed to receive in exchange for those actions on my part, according to you?

*looks around the house*

Nope, still not here. Christianity is not an exchange program, Axe. We don't do certain things to get certain things in return. We are saved by God as He wills it. You're coming dangerously close to promoting prosperity teaching here.

Other than that, any children you may create will be outside of the will of God.

If she's gay, how is she going to be creating any children?

Childless normal couples have no shame for being childless, bu they often have to work through disappointment. God is there with His love and compassion to help them through it.

According to you we should have shame, because perhaps we're in a church that is not Bible-believing enough for God. Or maybe we aren't learning about Him to His satisfaction. Earlier you stated that if we do those things God will give us children. Wanna rethink your statement yet?

The most wonderful thing is that God heals. He can bring forth fruit in a barren, Christian home--no problem. I have seen it where couples who were medically deemed sterile, had children. Amazing--but these were couples who served God wholeheartedly and lived lives honouring to Him. It is His will that we multiply and provide children for His kingdom..He will make a way where there seems no way!

I agree. But it is not the exhcange program you make it out to be. God gives blessings as He sees fit. Not because we do anything to earn those blessings. We deserve nothing but death and hell.

 

[OllieFranz]

Even animals have figured out that heterosexual sex is the only sort of sex that "works". If homosexual sex "worked" in producing offspring, it would be self-evident that it was not evil. However, last time I checked, the anus was only for excretion, not for the insertion of foreign objects. "out", not in. Even animals have figured out what is the right hole to use.

Or how about you make 2 worlds, one with only homosexuals in it, and one with only heterosexuals in it... then, come back 300 years later, and you tell me which world still has people in it. The lack of multiplication implies the evil of homosexuality. It does not bear fruit.

It is wrong to argue either side of the issue from science, since science is amoral, and cannot decide moral issues. Additionally there are animals whose life cycles can be used to refute most of the arguments used on either side. Besides, it can be dangerous to use science because there is a tendency to call it "Nature." Nature, in the sense of "natural science" is not a Biblical concept.

In the entire Old Testament, there is no word or phrase that can be translated as nature. There is the will of God, but there is no mention of nature. The concept in the New Testament of "natural" (or "according to nature") and "unnatural" (or "against nature") is borrowed from the philosophy of the pagan Greeks. Even then, it has nothing to do with natural science. It is strictly a philosophical term.

Plato used the terms to refer to attributes of the ideal of the referrent. But he wasn't always clear what was an essential part of that ideal. The stoics adapted the terms into moral judgements. Nature was equated to Reason. The stoics felt that if something was done emotionally it was done badly.

Specifically when it came to sex, good ("natural") sex was done for a specific purpose. Whether one used* a wife to produce children, used a temple prostitute to honor the gods, or used a banquet hostess as you socialized with your colleagues, or used a protogé to further his education, sex was natural.When done purely for pleasure, when emotion over-ran reason, then the sex was unnatural.

*The Greeks only thought of sex as one body using another body to acheive some purpose.

By the time the New Testament was written, the phrases had become cliched and lost most of their meaning. The average person, when he called something "natural" simply meant "the way it always is," with more than a hint of an attitude that added "and always has been" in the "change is bad" sort of way. So when Paul says short hair is natural for men, he means that it would be surprising (and feel "wrong") to see a man with long hair. When he says that God acted "against nature" when He grafted the wild olive branches to the domesticated olive tree, he is saying that we wouldn't expect God to do that, it upsets our sense of order.

Paul was schooled in Greek philosophy as well as in Jewish Law. He knew the works of Plato and the stoics. In a time when direct quotation was not yet formalized, unless you were a scribe making a fair copy of a book, you seldom quoted a passage verbatim. And yet Romans 1:26-27 is far more directly "borrowed" from Plato's Laws, line 1.636c than the average quotation. Paul knew the passage. He knew how Plato used it, and that what made the sex "unatural" was not the same-sex relationship (Plato chose a homosexual example because he was a somewhat chauvinistic Athenian writing to Cretans, and on Crete they especially revered Zeus' relationship with Ganymede, which had begun as "natural" pederasty, but because they were both immortal, continued forever, and also because the Greeks did not have a "rational" excuse for sex between adults of the same sex.). The sex was unnatural because they got carried away by their own lusts, and eventually became "addicted" to the sexual high.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Because we are sinful and perverse people. Some more than others. Most people don't cross that line.



The tragedy is that homosexuals are fertile people who are supposed to have children--for God--in a marriage with the opposite sex, which is as God intends. If you are a Christian, you will stop this aberrant behaviour, get into a Bible-believing church, get yourself a mentor and learn of God and His ways. then He will provide you with a mate to marry and you will then have the chldren that God wants to give you.

If we were meant to have children for God in heterosexual relationships, then why didn't God create us as heterosexuals?

Other than that, any children you may create will be outside of the will of God.

What the...? So I'm a devilish abomination for not having children, but if I have children, thats not God's will???

No, but it is the only lasting treasure that we can take with us to heaven. They are precious gifts from God...nothing better!

fine, great good... but thats not all there is to a relationship, so why keep banging on about them. Yes, homosexual people won't have children through purely homosexual sex... but what about all the other parts of a relationship?

Childless normal couples have no shame for being childless, bu they often have to work through disappointment. God is there with His love and compassion to help them through it.

Homosexuals ARE normal childless couples

The most wonderful thing is that God heals. He can bring forth fruit in a barren, Christian home--no problem. I have seen it where couples who were medically deemed sterile, had children. Amazing--but these were couples who served God wholeheartedly and lived lives honouring to Him. It is His will that we multiply and provide children for His kingdom..He will make a way where there seems no way!

I bet there are a lot more "medically sterile" couples that never have children than ones that doi, no matter how much they pray. But thats all so much issue clouding, you are contradicting yourself up in knots... homosexuals are bad because they can't have children, but homosexuals that DO have children are bad too, because they have children outside God's will, and childless heterosexual couples are OK, even though they are childless... Could you please try not to contradict yourself in the same post?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'm sorry, but if my nose is stuffed up and I sneeze and/or blow it I feel relieved.
Just as if I have to use the rest room and I have a bowel movement I feel relief.

There are also many things that bring our body pleasure that could kill us such as drugs..

If I have an itch I scratch it and would experience what you may call "pleasure"

That does not mean that God meant for our "pleasure" receptors to be abused.

Such as someone sticking something in their nose to make themselves sneeze. Normally you wouldn't think of anyone doing that...it seems abnormal. It also seems abnormal for some people to be sticking other things where they don't belong...

Um... without wanting to get to explicet... the pleasure response I am talking about isn't similar to itching.

But hey, if you wanna go all argument from design on me, trust me, when I am intimate, my lover and I stick to bits that I'm pretty sure even the most fundamental dogmatist would agree are for the purposes of sexual pleasure, so *wink* don't worry about me sticking anything "where it doesn't belong"

 

[onemessiah]

According to you we should have shame, because perhaps we're in a church that is not Bible-believing enough for God. Or maybe we aren't learning about Him to His satisfaction. Earlier you stated that if we do those things God will give us children. Wanna rethink your statement yet?

OWNED!

Reality Check- +1
floatingaxe- 0

 

[Miracle Storm]

Um... without wanting to get to explicet... the pleasure response I am talking about isn't similar to itching.

But hey, if you wanna go all argument from design on me, trust me, when I am intimate, my lover and I stick to bits that I'm pretty sure even the most fundamental dogmatist would agree are for the purposes of sexual pleasure, so *wink* don't worry about me sticking anything "where it doesn't belong"

My point was...
that just because something produces pleasure doesn't always means God meant for it to be used in that way.

That's why I brought drugs up. I didn't and DON'T want to actually delve into anyone's sex life.

Pleasurable things can be an act of abuse though, in a way that God did not intend.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

OWNED!

Reality Check- +1
floatingaxe- 0

Way to promote a mature discussion. Axe is open to criticism, if she wasn't she would be writing books instead of debating on an open forum. She never claimed to be perfect.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

My point was...
that just because something produces pleasure doesn't always means God meant for it to be used in that way.

That's why I brought drugs up. I didn't and DON'T want to actually delve into anyone's sex life.

Pleasurable things can be an act of abuse though, in a way that God did not intend.

Ah, so, you're saying that a pleasureable thing that results in harm to oneself is sinful?

Hmmm... guess that rules heterosexual sex out, only us female homosexuals can be righteous in a pleasurable activities. Bummer to all you deviant heterosexuals!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Way to promote a mature discussion. Axe is open to criticism, if she wasn't she would be writing books instead of debating on an open forum. She never claimed to be perfect.

Actually, she has... repeatedly...