Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[]RiSeN[]

No. The interpretation I have given is correct. Those who put a spin on it to help their cause for homosexuality are actually refuting God Himself.

 

[Jerrell]

The quotations from Leviticus do indeed intimate that God forbids homosexual love from the people of the law. We christians, however, are not required to keep the levitical law. There are just whole huge bunches of those laws that we regularly and flagrantly violate, and that's okay. They aren't for us. They're for Israel.

The Romans passage (if you read it in its entirety) indicates that homosexual inclinations are a punishment for sin, not that they are themselves sinful.

There is no such thing as "homosexual love" homosexuality is sin just as much as adultery. Calling it lvoe does not justify it. That's like calling Beastility, Beastility love, no man can justify having sex with an animal just because he or she loves it, same for homosexuality.

 

[lincolngreen50]

Firstly, he didn't "refute" Scripture, he offered his interpretation of it.

(Secondly, there's no Scriptural basis for the "Bible = God's Word" equation. And thirdly, the angel's warning in Revelation 22 about adding or taking away words refers to the Book of Life which He'd opened in chapter 20 - not to the Bible.)

Fourthly, if you really believe that adding to or taking away from the words of the Bible constitutes a grievous sin, then let's look at what you've just done. The writer in Leviticus simply talks about "lying with a man as with a woman". Nothing else. It's your interpretation that he means "in bed, sexually, as mates, as a married couple." Have you not just added to the words of the Bible by offering that interpretation?

Just a thought.

David.

Lying with a man as with a woman. Lying means sex. In this particular case, this means having sex with the same sex.

(Lying with a man as with a woman)
This phrase is olde English; 17th century English in the time of King James 1st who commisioned the King James version 1613.
Homosexual is a modern word,being English you should be aware of this.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Lying with a man as with a woman. Lying means sex. In this particular case, this means having sex with the same sex.

(Lying with a man as with a woman)
This phrase is olde English; 17th century English in the time of King James 1st who commisioned the King James version 1613.
Homosexual is a modern word,being English you should be aware of this.

Exactly!

 

[davedjy]

That your belief is, in your opinion, honest in no way affirms its alignment with God's principles. A racist can be honest in his belief in his race being superior, yet it in no way makes it a reality.


Honesty does not equate to righteousness.

Yet, this in no way refutes a valid sexual orientation.

On what authority do you base your knowledge of God's will and principles?

Applying the Biblical principles of a loving, monogamous, life long relationship. As if God would have a problem which sex it is, how preposterously shallow.

We don't have to say it, Jesus does;
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." - Matt 7:21-23

Yet, you can't prove this has anything to do with gays or lesbians. No one here is qualified to judge my relationship with Christ, I know Him, and that is all that matters. You can say all you want, but it doesn't change my relationship with Christ, nor are you qualified to judge it.

"Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” -Gen 1:28

I know the Scripture. Once again, you have yet to prove this is a current day commandment and to all.

Has this been accomplished? Not hardly. We have extinct countless species we never even knew existed and there are countless species we have not even discovered.

Humans are far from being extinct. Gays and lesbians only account for a small minority of the population, anyways.

Has earths population reached its limit? Not hardly. We have ample room in vast uninhabited areas yet to be settled and the world produces more than enough food for all many times over.

Read above. Gays and lesbians always account for a small minority of the population, anyways.

Bravo, with this line of argument you've just implied that the G/L lifestyle is a choice.

That is entirely incorrect! Nothing I said implied that. I said exactly what I did...heterosexuals choose not to have children, using contraceptives. What does that have to do with a choice of a sexual orientation????

Show me the verse(s) on which your claim is based.

That isn't a credible debate point. Show me the verse that shows that the verses regarding slavery aren't aimed at us? we use historical context to understand things, and you aren't doing that.

Because all throughout the bible all one sees is that God continually blessed his obedient servants by making them many and like the grains of sand, and verses such as this;

This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea. And your offspring would become just like the sand, and the descendants from your inward parts like the grains of it. One’s name would not be cut off or be annihilated from before me.” Isaiah 48:17-19

That verse is more of a red herring than anything else...doesn't prove anything.

What a coincidence that the latter part of that verse is EXACTLY what happens to homosexuals and gay couplings, instead of being blessed their name is cutoff, their lineage ended.

Adoption carries many blessings. Giving a child a home that doesn't have one....
Lineage carries on in many forms, anyways. Multiple siblings will have children, and the family carries on that way.

"Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah;
The fruitage of the belly is a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man,
So are the sons of youth.

Happy is the able-bodied man that has filled his quiver with them.
They will not be ashamed,
For they will speak with enemies in the gate." -Psalms 127:3-5

These Bible quotes don't prove anything...

 

[Floatingaxe]

That is just blindness. Willfully so ---arguing to keep the lie. What a day we live in. What we do with our lives is the result of what we THINK. You've heard the adage, 'You are what you eat'. Well, we are what we think as well. We are shaped by the attitudes of those around us--family, friends, etc. and their philosophies, their goodness, their sinfulness--- all affects us from babyhood.

Homosexuality is either a conscious choice in some, or an unconscious drive in others. Either way, it is a sin, and for those who have subconsciously veered off into that lifestyle, they need spiritual help--a healing touch from their Maker.

 

[davedjy]

That is just blindness. Willfully so ---arguing to keep the lie. What a day we live in. What we do with our lives is the result of what we THINK. You've heard the adage, 'You are what you eat'. Well, we are what we think as well. We are shaped by the attitudes of those around us--family, friends, etc. and their philosophies, their goodness, their sinfulness--- all affects us from babyhood.

Homosexuality is either a concsious choice in some, or an unconscious drive in others. Either way, it is a sin, and for those who have subconsciously veered off into that lifestyle, they need spiritual help--a healing touch from their Maker.

Common argument we've seen here a million times...narrow homosexuality down to a "choice", and isolate the sex act from the orientation.

Again, you can keep calling something a sin, but it doesn't make it that way.

 

[]RiSeN[]

That is just blindness. Willfully so ---arguing to keep the lie. What a day we live in. What we do with our lives is the result of what we THINK. You've heard the adage, 'You are what you eat'. Well, we are what we think as well. We are shaped by the attitudes of those around us--family, friends, etc. and their philosophies, their goodness, their sinfulness--- all affects us from babyhood.

Homosexuality is either a concsious choice in some, or an unconscious drive in others. Either way, it is a sin, and for those who have subconsciously veered off into that lifestyle, they need spiritual help--a healing touch from their Maker.

I think Peter sums it up nicely;

However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering. - 2Peter 2:1-3

By davedjy own admittance the G/L is only a small section both in world population and in christendom.

With covetousness(Heb 10:26-27) in regards to our having a hope in the mercy that God has bestowed upon those who love Him whole bodied, whole souled and of whole mind, they seek to enter as Jesus says not through the door but "climb up some other place" shrouding themselves in counterfeit words.

Because, they being "lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God" they are "having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power". Claiming acceptance of the salvation yet rejecting and unwilling to acknowledge the need for judgment and repentance which makes that salvation possible.

"Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off, especially, however, those who go on after flesh with the desire to defile [it] and who look down on lordship.

Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble at glorious ones but speak abusively, whereas angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring against them an accusation in abusive terms, [not doing so] out of respect for Jehovah. But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even suffer destruction in their own [course of] destruction, wronging themselves as a reward for wrongdoing.

They consider luxurious living in the daytime a pleasure. They are spots and blemishes, indulging with unrestrained delight in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you. They have eyes full of adultery and unable to desist from sin, and they entice unsteady souls. They have a heart trained in covetousness. They are accursed children. Abandoning the straight path, they have been misled. They have followed the path of Ba′laam, [the son] of Be′or, who loved the reward of wrongdoing, but got a reproof for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden, making utterance with the voice of a man, hindered the prophet’s mad course.

These are fountains without water, and mists driven by a violent storm, and for them the blackness of darkness has been reserved. For they utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people who conduct themselves in error. While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by this one. Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire." - 2Peter 2:9-22

 

[davedjy]

I think Peter sums it up nicely;

However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering. - 2Peter 2:1-3

By davedjy own admittance the G/L is only a small section both in world population and in christendom.

With covetousness(Heb 10:26-27) in regards to our having a hope in the mercy that God has bestowed upon those who love Him whole bodied, whole souled and of whole mind, they seek to enter as Jesus says not through the door but "climb up some other place" shrouding themselves in counterfeit words.

Because, they being "lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God" they are "having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power". Claiming acceptance of the salvation yet rejecting and unwilling to acknowledge the need for judgment and repentance which makes that salvation possible.

"Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off, especially, however, those who go on after flesh with the desire to defile [it] and who look down on lordship.

Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble at glorious ones but speak abusively, whereas angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring against them an accusation in abusive terms, [not doing so] out of respect for Jehovah. But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even suffer destruction in their own [course of] destruction, wronging themselves as a reward for wrongdoing.

They consider luxurious living in the daytime a pleasure. They are spots and blemishes, indulging with unrestrained delight in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you. They have eyes full of adultery and unable to desist from sin, and they entice unsteady souls. They have a heart trained in covetousness. They are accursed children. Abandoning the straight path, they have been misled. They have followed the path of Ba′laam, [the son] of Be′or, who loved the reward of wrongdoing, but got a reproof for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden, making utterance with the voice of a man, hindered the prophet’s mad course.

These are fountains without water, and mists driven by a violent storm, and for them the blackness of darkness has been reserved. For they utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people who conduct themselves in error. While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by this one. Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire." - 2Peter 2:9-22

Easy to call someone a false teacher, and then mindlessly quote the Bible without any direct tie whatsoever. I believe every anti-gay arguer here is doing false teaching including yourself. None of these verses are a debate point.
Humorously, you underline "desires of the flesh", yet you have no way to directly tie that one back. Ironic that you use these verses, since it can easily be said that you are doing false teaching, by trying to directly relate these verses to something without proof.

 

[davedjy]

By davedjy own admittance the G/L is only a small section both in world population and in christendom.

...yet attempting to refute something on each account for being a minority does not validate your standing.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Easy to call someone a false teacher, and then mindlessly quote the Bible without any direct tie whatsoever. I believe every anti-gay arguer here is doing false teaching including yourself. None of these verses are a debate point.
Humorously, you underline "desires of the flesh", yet you have no way to directly tie that one back. Ironic that you use these verses, since it can easily be said that you are doing false teaching, by trying to directly relate these verses to something without proof.

In reality, those scriptures are entirely appropriate for this topic. A homosexual who is not the least bit convicted by these powerful, living words is blinded and confounded because of the powerful deception of the enemy. Deliverance is required, and until it is achieved, he will remain separated from the life-giver.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Common argument we've seen here a million times...narrow homosexuality down to a "choice", and isolate the sex act from the orientation.

Common argument we've seen here a million times...narrow homosexuality down to an "orientation", and isolate the salvation from the judgment.

Again, you can keep calling something a sin, but it doesn't make it that way.

Its always been considered a sin by God and His followers. You haven't shown it to be otherwise.

You keep acting as though the burden of proof is on us, when the reality is you have made yourself a sect. You need to prove that homosexuality is not a sin, which you have been unable. In fact looking at many of your posts in this thread and others one sees a trend, which is constant refusals and not proposals.

Time after time with everything put forth in front of you you reject, not because the information is unreasonable, unsound, or illogical, but simply because it does not coincide with what you CHOOSE to believe, which is as Jesus put it "because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”- Matt 16:23

Rejecting is all you have done on this issue. You have not brought anything to the table but your own opinion backed by secular thinking in order to integrate into christianity. And astoundingly you claim yourself successful, so much so that you take the position that you are in the true light and that 99.9% of us are wrong. Interestingly your attitude and blindness resembles that of many an atheist on these forums.

And the root of the problem is that when a gay person stands at the "door" to Christianity the burden of rejecting the flesh seems so overwhelming that most get to thinking as Peter did in saying “Be kind to yourself, Lord" and so many try to justify another way in. Yet Jesus says : “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it." - Matt 16:24-25

When one disowns themselves they are no longer a slave to themselves in any way, not even to their "orientation".

Don't think so? Jesus disowned himself to the point of letting himself be killed.... by people who also did not want to believe they were sinning.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Easy to call someone a false teacher, and then mindlessly quote the Bible without any direct tie whatsoever. I believe every anti-gay arguer here is doing false teaching including yourself.

Again I ask by what authority do you teach your claims?

Its your "I believe.." vs my "the bible says..". The question of the OP was if homosexuality is right or wrong from a christian point of view. You say "No" accompanied by your own opinions and secular philosophies. I say "Yes" and point out what the bible says. Who really is doing the will of the Father? Who really is thinking God's thoughts?

None of these verses are a debate point.

Your right, they don't leave any room for debate.

Humorously, you underline "desires of the flesh", yet you have no way to directly tie that one back.

Well I don't need to, you just did, since you know exactly what I'm referring to.

Ironic that you use these verses, since it can easily be said that you are doing false teaching, by trying to directly relate these verses to something without proof.

Yes, you say it quite easily yet you wont take it any further than that because you know I'm speaking the truth. Unless of course its to speak abusively of me.


You claim you interpret the bible correctly. I'm not calling you a false teacher. I'm simply holding your own words up to the light of the bible to "test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God" as John encouraged.

And again you offer up nothing more than rejections and no structured rebuttals of any substance.

 

[davedjy]

In reality, those scriptures are entirely appropriate for this topic. A homosexual who is not the least bit convicted by these powerful, living words is blinded and confounded because of the powerful deception of the enemy. Deliverance is required, and until it is achieved, he will remain separated from the life-giver.

The deception you have shown, is within yourself. Actually believing that a homosexual can be delivered is very deceiving. More so, not grounded on any proof whatsoever.

 

[davedjy]

Common argument we've seen here a million times...narrow homosexuality down to an "orientation", and isolate the salvation from the judgment.

Homosexuality IS an orientation, whether you want to believe it or not, that is your problem, not mine.

Its always been considered a sin by God and His followers. You haven't shown it to be otherwise.

I have posted interpretation after interpretation which are actually grounded on historical backings.
Whether you believe those interpretations is in your own opinion.

You keep acting as though the burden of proof is on us, when the reality is you have made yourself a sect. You need to prove that homosexuality is not a sin, which you have been unable. In fact looking at many of your posts in this thread and others one sees a trend, which is constant refusals and not proposals.

The burden is on me? no, you haven't proven that same sex, monogamous relationships are sinful. You also haven't proven the definition of arsenokoitai, for your side of the debate. The burden is on both parties to prove their translations. I have used historical backings and historical context for my interpretations. I have yet to see any from you anti-gay debaters.

Time after time with everything put forth in front of you you reject, not because the information is unreasonable, unsound, or illogical, but simply because it does not coincide with what you CHOOSE to believe, which is as Jesus put it "because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”- Matt 16:23

Right..again, post Scripture that doesn't directly pertain to what we are talking about.

Rejecting is all you have done on this issue. You have not brought anything to the table but your own opinion backed by secular thinking in order to integrate into christianity.

That is highly inaccurate, so I suggest you actually read the threads here before coming to that conclusion based on lack of evidence. I have posted Credible Biblical Scholars, and their stands, proof that the definition of Arsenokoitai is unknown, and historical backings for months here.

And astoundingly you claim yourself successful, so much so that you take the position that you are in the true light and that 99.9% of us are wrong. Interestingly your attitude and blindness resembles that of many an atheist on these forums.

...and your attitude resembles the 99.9% of the pro-gay arguers here. You don't have evidence or historical backings. You also don't have proof of your word definitions.

And the root of the problem is that when a gay person stands at the "door" to Christianity the burden of rejecting the flesh seems so overwhelming that most get to thinking as Peter did in saying “Be kind to yourself, Lord" and so many try to justify another way in. Yet Jesus says : “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it." - Matt 16:24-25

Yet, that verse does not pertain directly to homosexuality, so why bother quoting it? I could use the same quote against heterosexuals.

When one disowns themselves they are no longer a slave to themselves in any way, not even to their "orientation".

Are you trying to say one can be freed from "homosexuality" as the orientation through Christ? ironic, the same person (you), who mentioned talk about false teaching. This would definitely be along those same lines.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

...and your attitude resembles the 99.9% of the pro-gay arguers here.

meanie!

 

[lincolngreen50]

Easy to call someone a false teacher, and then mindlessly quote the Bible without any direct tie whatsoever. I believe every anti-gay arguer here is doing false teaching including yourself. None of these verses are a debate point.
Humorously, you underline "desires of the flesh", yet you have no way to directly tie that one back. Ironic that you use these verses, since it can easily be said that you are doing false teaching, by trying to directly relate these verses to something without proof.

You see, you are doing it again,accusing those who follow the Word of God anti Gay.
Those who choose to go down the Gay path have made that decision themselves,those who choose to disobey the 10 commandments choose to do so and they will ultimately be judged by Jesus Christ on judgment day.

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God

Our Relationship with God supercedes any relationship we have on earth.
Obeying the Word and of God is the most important thing Christians do.
If one is accusing Christians who follow God has anti Gay one is accusing the Lords word of being anti Gay thus according to John1:1 if his words are anti Gay then God is anti Gay. But he is not and neither are some of our christian breathren.

 

[davedjy]

You see, you are doing it again,accusing those who follow the Word of God anti Gay.

It is anti-gay beliefs, whatever way you want to put it. There isn't any point in saying "those who follow the Word of God", as both sides have given reasons for believing they are still following the Word of God.

Those who choose to go down the Gay path have made that decision themselves,those who choose to disobey the 10 commandments choose to do so and they will ultimetly be judged by Jesus Christ on judgment day.

Homosexuality is not one of the 10 Commandments. Before you try indirectly relating it, my response will be the same...there isn't any DIRECT commandment in there against it.

[

I]John1:1 In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God[/I]

Our Relationship with God supercedes any relationship we have on earth.
Obeying the Word and of God is the most important thing Christians do.

Agreed...I have never stated that a secular opinion is above the Word of God. I have also given my reasons for believing the Bible does not condemn same sex, monogamous life-long relationships.

If one is accusing Christians who follow God has anti Gay one is accusing the Lords word of being anti Gay thus according to John1:1 if his words are anti Gay then God is anti Gay. But he is not and neither are some of our christian breathren.

If God's Words were truly anti-gay, but I don't believe they are. I guess it would have to appear that way, because you believe they are one and the same. I disagree with those interpretations that just represent doctrine (the interpretation of the Word). Hence, I believe man has condemned same sex acts with interpretation and translation flaws, not God.

 

[davedjy]

meanie!

lol -- I felt compelled to say it when a percentage was brought up against my side.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear EnemyPartII

Um... huh?

The general consensus at the moment is that there is, indeed, a heriditary component to homosexual charecteristics, the only serious discussion to be had is to determine what roles environment plays in comparison to genetics, and which genes code for this (almost certainly) polygenic trait

You are under some ilusion that the only serious points are the ones you accept as serious.
I made it clear I accept that there is some genetic influence but my point is that you are incorrect, there is no consensus of proof of a gay gene. If there is a gene which causes sexual desire, then I assume you would similalrly argue that paedophiles be allowed to follow their genetic make up.
Not only is this gene factor not proven but neither is it crucial