Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[mont974x4]

Dude... seriously... I just lkinked you to an article in New Scientist, one of the most respectible peer rviewed journals out there that says there IS a genetic causal link with homosexuality... and, unlike FRC NS is objective and as proof against bias as human publications can get.

What part of this don't you understand?

Biggoted science says no gay gene, objective science says gay gene... coincidence?

Those scientists are biased. They keep trying to prove something despite the evidence to the contrary. I trust them as far as I trust politicians. LOL


However, for the sake of discussion I'll play along. If there is a gay gene, such as is suspected for alcoholism, that does not excuse us from our actions. We have a choice whether to to sin or not sin and the Holy Spirit gives us the power to do live godly lives, walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh. Our victory truly is in Christ.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Nope, it is written by a former atheist who set out to disprove God. His name is Lee Strobel and he's a journalist. He examines evidence, lays out the differing views, tests it out and shows how he reaches his conclusions. He has a series of books along the same lines.

interesting. Of course, I'm not an atheist, so I don't need to be convinced of the existence of God.

 

[mont974x4]

um... actually, you do... there are cultures, Australian Aboriginals spring to mind, where the concept of communal property is the norm, and Abroiginals get in lots of trouble stealing in white society because they aren't brought up to think of taking what you want and no one is using as stealing... it just doesn't occur to them.

Sorry, but no, there is no universal, unwritten morality that everyone is born knowing. We learn it or deduce it for ourselves, but it doesn't exist in some sort of strange duality without human societies for it to act in

OK, so that's another biblical principle you reject?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Those scientists are biased. They keep trying to prove something despite the evidence to the contrary. I trust them as far as I trust politicians. LOL


However, for the sake of discussion I'll play along. If there is a gay gene, such as is suspected for alcoholism, that does not excuse us from our actions. We have a choice whether to to sin or not sin and the Holy Spirit gives us the power to do live godly lives, walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh. Our victory truly is in Christ.

What evidence to the contrary is that? Did you even LOOK at the article? Are you saying they lied about their findings?

Sure, a gay gene doesn't excuse us from sinning. It just proves that homosexuality is natural.

But I don't see any reason to consider homosexuality a sin. Remember "The Bible SEZ!" is not reason enough. I want coherent logic in support of your Bible quote, or, failing that, a direct quote of Jesus Christ.

 

[Floatingaxe]

No, God is everywhere and certainly could have created things simultaneously at great distances, no problem there.

The problem, however, is that if God created stars that are a billion light years away, only 5000 years ago, then the light shouldn't have reached us yet. Wont for millions of years, yet there we see it every night.

How do you explain this?

As Earth was already here from an earlier creation, so, too, those far-flung stars could easily have been. Plus, the velocity of light law could have been instituted any time along the way.

I have no problem with it. God has provided us with much mystery over millenia, and we are the fortunate generation to have landed many explanations for ourselves, by His grace....through His logical vehicle---science.

 

[Floatingaxe]

then how do non Judeo Christian cultures come up with morals so similar to our own?

We are a Judeo-Christian culture, for the most part.

As for being laid down in the garden, I thought the only rule in the garden was "don't eat the fruit"?

The fruit was the benefactor of the ability to discern evil from good.

 

[mont974x4]

What evidence to the contrary is that? Did you even LOOK at the article? Are you saying they lied about their findings?

Sure, a gay gene doesn't excuse us from sinning. It just proves that homosexuality is natural.

But I don't see any reason to consider homosexuality a sin. Remember "The Bible SEZ!" is not reason enough. I want coherent logic in support of your Bible quote, or, failing that, a direct quote of Jesus Christ.

I'll play your game for a minute. Show me a quote from Christ, or anywhere in the Bible, that specifically addresses same-sex marriage in a positive way?


The "Bible says..." is the standard by which we, as Christians, should be determining our actions. Otherwise we are back to relativism, chaos, no accountability, no righteous and just God....nothing matters, go do as you wish existence.

That would also mean that people favorable to the gay view couldn't accuse those who disagree with them of bigotry, hate, etc because, well, we were born this way, this is how we are.....you can't have it both ways.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Dude... seriously... I just lkinked you to an article in New Scientist, one of the most respectible peer rviewed journals out there that says there IS a genetic causal link with homosexuality... and, unlike FRC NS is objective and as proof against bias as human publications can get.

What part of this don't you understand?

Biggoted science says no gay gene, objective science says gay gene... coincidence?

Let them say that---they haven't found it.

Objective science to you. Wishful thinking and agenda-driven, PC science to me.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

We are a Judeo-Christian culture, for the most part.



The fruit was the benefactor of the ability to discern evil from good.

Perhaps all/most cultures are, since the law is written on our hearts. A woman came to my church and she was a missionary who visited Papau,(sp)New Guinea. She found that 5 of the main laws were in the 10 commandments, it was pretty cool to hear. I think it takes a lot of SOMETHING to resist it..

 

[mont974x4]

http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp

The human X and Y chromosomes (the two “sex” chromosomes) have been completely sequenced. Thanks to work carried out by labs all across the globe, we know that the X chromosome contains 153 million base pairs, and harbors a total of 1168 genes (see [SIZE=-1]NCBI[/SIZE], 2004). The National Center for Biotechnology Information reports that the Y chromosome—which is much smaller—contains “only” 50 million base pairs, and is estimated to contain a mere 251 genes. Educational institutions such as Baylor University, the Max Planck Institute, the Sanger Institute, Washington University in St. Louis, and others have spent countless hours and millions of research dollars analyzing these unique chromosomes. As the data began to pour in, they allowed scientists to construct gene maps—using actual sequences from the Human Genome Project. And yet, neither the map for the X nor the Y chromosome contains any “gay gene.”


(emphasis not mine)

 

[EnemyPartyII]

As Earth was already here from an earlier creation, so, too, those far-flung stars could easily have been. Plus, the velocity of light law could have been instituted any time along the way.

I have no problem with it. God has provided us with much mystery over millenia, and we are the fortunate generation to have landed many explanations for ourselves, by His grace....through His logical vehicle---science.

hang on... the stars were created three days before man... the Bible SEZ!

and if you have to invoke things like changing speeds of light for which there is neither Biblical OR scientific evidence... hmm... could it be its time to re-evaluate something more fundamental?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'll play your game for a minute. Show me a quote from Christ, or anywhere in the Bible, that specifically addresses same-sex marriage in a positive way?


The "Bible says..." is the standard by which we, as Christians, should be determining our actions. Otherwise we are back to relativism, chaos, no accountability, no righteous and just God....nothing matters, go do as you wish existence.

That would also mean that people favorable to the gay view couldn't accuse those who disagree with them of bigotry, hate, etc because, well, we were born this way, this is how we are.....you can't have it both ways.

as discussed, just because the Bible doesn't specifically mention something does not equal condemnation. Jesus simply doesn't mention homosexuality. Period. So, we fall back to, show me a logically consistent reasoin coupled with a Bible quote to consider homosexuality sinful?

No. "The Bible Sez" all by itself, is a crappy thing on which to base your morals... that way lies lynchings, slavery and the stoning of rape victims. You gotta use your brain and interpret it, not just swallow the most shallow surface skim.

Bigotry and hate are natural. However, in our enlightened society they serve no beneficial purpose, and cause more hurt than benefit. Ergo, they are not moral behaviours.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Let them say that---they haven't found it.

Objective science to you. Wishful thinking and agenda-driven, PC science to me.

So they just made the numbers up?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp

The human X and Y chromosomes (the two “sex” chromosomes) have been completely sequenced. Thanks to work carried out by labs all across the globe, we know that the X chromosome contains 153 million base pairs, and harbors a total of 1168 genes (see [SIZE=-1]NCBI[/SIZE], 2004). The National Center for Biotechnology Information reports that the Y chromosome—which is much smaller—contains “only” 50 million base pairs, and is estimated to contain a mere 251 genes. Educational institutions such as Baylor University, the Max Planck Institute, the Sanger Institute, Washington University in St. Louis, and others have spent countless hours and millions of research dollars analyzing these unique chromosomes. As the data began to pour in, they allowed scientists to construct gene maps—using actual sequences from the Human Genome Project. And yet, neither the map for the X nor the Y chromosome contains any “gay gene.”


(emphasis not mine)

Right... X and Y genes code for the secondary sexual charecteristics... they don't code for contributing behavioural traits... there are 21 othere chromosomes for the hopmosexual relevent genes to be found on...

further, remember what I said about polygenic traits? it could be that homosexuality is coded for by many genes on different chromosomes, even including genes that have a dfferent function by themselfes... the same way hair colour, height and skin colour are

 

[Floatingaxe]

Perhaps all/most cultures are, since the law is written on our hearts. A woman came to my church and she was a missionary who visited Papau,(sp)New Guinea. She found that 5 of the main laws were in the 10 commandments, it was pretty cool to hear. I think it takes a lot of SOMETHING to resist it..

I agree with that completely. At the same time, however, there are cultures today that have a morality about certain behaviours that runs totally contrary to ours. Some non-Judeo-Christian cultures have an honour code that deems it righteous to kill out of honour, or lie or steal if "necessary", for example--the situational ethic. Some others have other gaping differences. Over centuries, the basic "law" written on their collective hearts erodes with their particular cultural customs, and being governed by other "gods", they lose much of that innate moral fibre. It's still there in the individual, but as a people, we see something other than godly ethics.

 

[mont974x4]

as discussed, just because the Bible doesn't specifically mention something does not equal condemnation. Jesus simply doesn't mention homosexuality. Period. So, we fall back to, show me a logically consistent reasoin coupled with a Bible quote to consider homosexuality sinful?

No. "The Bible Sez" all by itself, is a crappy thing on which to base your morals... that way lies lynchings, slavery and the stoning of rape victims. You gotta use your brain and interpret it, not just swallow the most shallow surface skim.

Bigotry and hate are natural. However, in our enlightened society they serve no beneficial purpose, and cause more hurt than benefit. Ergo, they are not moral behaviours.

Since you have not yet shown a godly example of same sex union from the Bible I would wager that you can't. What does that tell us? Especially since Christ does address marriage and marriage is shown in Genesis to be a man and a woman. .
NASB
Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I agree with that completely. At the same time, however, there are cultures today that have a morality about certain behaviours that runs totally contrary to ours. Some non-Judeo-Christian cultures have an honour code that deems it righteous to kill out of honour, or lie or steal if "necessary", for example--the situational ethic. Some others have other gaping differences. Over centuries, the basic "law" written on their collective hearts erodes with their particular cultural customs, and being governed by other "gods", they lose much of that innate moral fibre. It's still there in the individual, but as a people, we see something other that godly ethics.

I suppose we shouldn't under-estimate the power of the enemy...

 

[mont974x4]

I suppose we shouldn't under-estimate the power of the enemy...

Amen

 

[Floatingaxe]

I suppose we shouldn't under-estimate the power of the enemy...

Absolutely. But we are the head, not the tail!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I agree with that completely. At the same time, however, there are cultures today that have a morality about certain behaviours that runs totally contrary to ours. Some non-Judeo-Christian cultures have an honour code that deems it righteous to kill out of honour, or lie or steal if "necessary", for example--the situational ethic. Some others have other gaping differences. Over centuries, the basic "law" written on their collective hearts erodes with their particular cultural customs, and being governed by other "gods", they lose much of that innate moral fibre. It's still there in the individual, but as a people, we see something other than godly ethics.

it couldn't be that the 10 commandments are based on the same ethical memes that occur everywhere else?

Just a thought.

I mean is the water in the puddle hole shaped, or is the hole around the water puddle shaped?