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Homosexuality - Here I stand.

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Jadin Xquire

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Tissue: Maybe I missed that in the bible. Could you help me find it in the bible? You stated that sex before marriage is not necessarily sinful. How is that so according to the bible? That tells me that the act of sex before marriage is ok to your belief. What scripture can support your claim?

Now I understood God is not a God of confusion. Why would God in certain passages of the bible condemn sexual immorality, according to your belief with sex before marriage is not necessarily sinful, then would God say it is ok to have sex before marriage?

I understand you will believe what you believe. I am just trying to understand your beliefs. Does the bible fit 100% with your statement " sex before marriage is necessarily sinful "? I see the contradiction. I'm not being closed-minded. I am actually trying to understand where are you coming from. I just want to know if the bible states it "sex before marriage is not necessarily sinful" or the similar. Does it?
 
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wayseer

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Tissue: Maybe it is complicated to say if fornication is or not sexual immorality if you don't understand the definition it self in its entirety.


You are using a 21st century dictionary to understand words used and their context over two millennia ago?

During those times the general population believed that having sex with temple prostitutes would bring about all sorts of good luck, good will, good harvest, good health - well you get the picture. In other words, 'fornication', having sex with temple prostitutes, was an act of idolatry - it was placing the belief in the power of fornication above the promise of God. Therefore, idolatry was the issue - not sex.

As far as I am aware, in our society, having sex before marriage, with multiple partners etc etc is not carried out in the belief that the shares in the superannuation fund will continue to rise or that such acts are a cure for cancer.

Trying to put a 21st century understand on cultural and social practices over two millennia ago is not conducive to our understanding of scripture.
 
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Jadin Xquire

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You are using a 21st century dictionary to understand words used and their context over two millennia ago?

During those times the general population believed that having sex with temple prostitutes would bring about all sorts of good luck, good will, good harvest, good health
Ya in the religion of Diana. That was a cult. The subject we are talking about is Christianity. Maybe if this subject was on the Diana religion then you would have a point. Stay on the subject.

- well you get the picture. In other words, 'fornication', having sex with temple prostitutes, was an act of idolatry - it was placing the belief in the power of fornication above the promise of God. Therefore, idolatry was the issue - not sex.

Ya in the Diana Religion......Yet again we are talking about Christianity.

As far as I am aware, in our society, having sex before marriage, with multiple partners etc etc is not carried out in the belief that the shares in the superannuation fund will continue to rise or that such acts are a cure for cancer.

I'm only concern with the beliefs of Jesus, Apostles, Post-Apostles, etc..... any beliefs contradictory to theirs is not what I believe.

Trying to put a 21st century understand on cultural and social practices over two millennia ago is not conducive to our understanding of scripture.

That is why we should go on the principles of the Bible. Principles never change. It does state God is the same Yesterday and He is of Today. So the principles is what is important.

If you want to get technical, Clement and others wrote against sex before marriage as the apostle did. Jesus said that if anyone look at another person lustfully then that was considered adultery. The 2nd Century A.D. and Beyond, Men of God wrote against fornication.

Societies change but the word of God doesn't. God is the only one who could change his own word. The only changes God made was concerning Exodus 20:5. In that verse it states that if the father does Idolatry then the children would pay for the sins of the father. That it was up to the third/fourth generation of the children. Then God change that rule in Ezekiel 18. See from Genesis to Revelation the rule has not changed about fornication according to Christianity. Diana religion is a different religion. If I did not post this, some people would be deceived with the intention of your post.

A primary example of your post is


1 Timothy 1:8-11 (New American Standard Bible)

8But we know that (A)the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9realizing the fact that (B)law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (C)rebellious, for the (D)ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (E)profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10and (F)immoral men and (G)homosexuals and (H)kidnappers and (I)liars and (J)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (K)sound teaching,
11according to (L)the glorious gospel of (M)the blessed God, with which I have been (N)entrusted.
Cross references:
  1. 1 Timothy 1:8 : Rom 7:12, 16
  2. 1 Timothy 1:9 : Gal 5:23
  3. 1 Timothy 1:9 : Titus 1:6, 10
  4. 1 Timothy 1:9 : 1 Pet 4:18; Jude 15
  5. 1 Timothy 1:9 : 1 Tim 4:7; 6:20; Heb 12:16
  6. 1 Timothy 1:10 : 1 Cor 6:9
  7. 1 Timothy 1:10 : Lev 18:22
  8. 1 Timothy 1:10 : Ex 21:16; Rev 18:13
  9. 1 Timothy 1:10 : Rev 21:8, 27; 22:15
  10. 1 Timothy 1:10 : Matt 5:33
  11. 1 Timothy 1:10 : 1 Tim 4:6; 6:3; 2 Tim 4:3; Titus 1:9, 13; 2:1, 2
  12. 1 Timothy 1:11 : 2 Cor 4:4
  13. 1 Timothy 1:11 : 1 Tim 6:15
  14. 1 Timothy 1:11 : Gal 2:7

The Law doesn't condemn men who live by what God's standards for man. The Law only condemns men who live by lawlessness. People who think fornication is ok, according to 1 Timothy 1:8-11 is condemn by the law.

Matthew 5:17-18 (New International Version)

The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


Jesus states he wasn't about abolishing the Law but to fulfill. That means the OT is still God's Law. It is still in affect. The Principle is still in affect. Fornication is considered sexual immorality. Sex before marriage is fornication. It is wrong. Society may view it is Good because societies change from time to time, but God's principles never change unless God changes them. Until the change the principle still stands. Fornication is wrong. Sex before marriage is wrong. You individuals whom think fornication is ok before marriage are thinking like a carnal man. A spiritual man doesn't think this way. I think like a spiritual man of God. Fornication is wrong.
 
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Jadin Xquire

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Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
Thoughts?
Agreed.....Amen. :thumbsup:
 
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OllieFranz

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My question was referred to people out of the bonds of marriage having sex. When you stated "I understand that.", are you say "yes" fornication is under the definition of Sexual Immorality?

Are you claiming to be the arbiter of what is and isn't marriage?

Yes fornication, defined as sex between unmarried persons is a sin of sexual immorality. But it is the couple who determine the marriage. Otherwise, I could simply refuse to recognize your marriage and accuse you and your wife of sexual immorality.
 
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Jadin Xquire

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Are you claiming to be the arbiter of what is and isn't marriage?

Yes fornication, defined as sex between unmarried persons is a sin of sexual immorality. But it is the couple who determine the marriage. Otherwise, I could simply refuse to recognize your marriage and accuse you and your wife of sexual immorality.

mar⋅ry at dictionary.com


1   /ˈmær
thinsp.png
i/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mar-ee] Show IPA verb, -ried, -ry⋅ing.Use marry in a Sentence

–verb (used with object) 1. to take as a husband or wife; take in marriage: Susan married Ed. 2. to perform the marriage ceremonies for (two people who wish to be husband and wife); join in wedlock: The minister married Susan and Ed. 3. to give in marriage; arrange the marriage of (often fol. by off): Her father wants to marry her to his friend's son. They want to marry off all their children before selling their big home. 4. to unite intimately: Common economic interests marry the two countries. 5. to take as an intimate life partner by a formal exchange of promises in the manner of a traditional marriage ceremony. 6. to combine, connect, or join so as to make more efficient, attractive, or profitable: The latest cameras marry automatic and manual features. A recent merger marries two of the nation's largest corporations. 7. Nautical. a. to lay together (the unlaid strands of two ropes) to be spliced. b. to seize (two ropes) together end to end for use as a single line. c. to seize (parallel ropes) together at intervals. 8. to cause (food, liquor, etc.) to blend with other ingredients: to marry malt whiskey with grain whiskey.
–verb (used without object) 9. to take a husband or wife; wed. 10. (of two or more foods, wines, etc.) to combine suitably or agreeably; blend: This wine and the strong cheese just don't marry.

No I am not claiming to be the arbiter of what is and isn't marriage. If I was I wouldn't use dictionary.com and the bible to back me up. That is not the case. Just connecting the dots appropriately and logically from the bible.

Under the definition in the bible it is not sexual immorality for married couples(Husband/Wife or Man/Woman) to have sex. Again the situation is not about married people. The situation was about a person who is unmarried. Let's stay focus.

Remember: Fornication is what a person does when he/she is unmarried to another person in sexual intercourse. Before marriage.... This is sexual immorality.

So since you say that people who aren't married who have sex is considered sexual immorality then does this definition of fornication apply to only Heterosexuals?
 
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Tissue

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I see the bible states it clearly as you said "I understand that some translations of Scripture say fornication is sexually immoral". Then you state "but I do not think that sex before marriage is necessarily sinful."
Isn't that a contradiction in your statement? I'm confused on your understanding of fornication. Could it be that you understand it clearly states in the bible fornication is under sexual immorality, but you are ok with sex before marriage which is sexual immorality?

Actually, there's no contradiction in those two statements. In order to produce a contradiction, there must be a third statement, which would be something like 'Chris (me) believes that all translations of the Bible that translate the Greek as 'fornication' are valid' or 'Chris holds the Bible to be eternally true and binding regarding fornication' etc etc

I recognize that marriage, which ties into the definition of fornication, is a cultural, social institution, and has very large differences between today and Rome/Israel/Babylon millenia ago.
 
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Tissue

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Ya in the religion of Diana. That was a cult. The subject we are talking about is Christianity. Maybe if this subject was on the Diana religion then you would have a point. Stay on the subject.



Ya in the Diana Religion......Yet again we are talking about Christianity.

Not just the Diana Religion. General population.

It's not unreasonable to suppose that the view was widespread enough that it needed a particular mention from the author of the epistle, even among Christians. After all, Christianity was an infant religion at the time.
 
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OllieFranz

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mar⋅ry at dictionary.com


1   /ˈmær
thinsp.png
i/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mar-ee] Show IPA verb, -ried, -ry⋅ing.Use marry in a Sentence

–verb (used with object) 1. to take as a husband or wife; take in marriage: Susan married Ed. 2. to perform the marriage ceremonies for (two people who wish to be husband and wife); join in wedlock: The minister married Susan and Ed. 3. to give in marriage; arrange the marriage of (often fol. by off): Her father wants to marry her to his friend's son. They want to marry off all their children before selling their big home. 4. to unite intimately: Common economic interests marry the two countries. 5. to take as an intimate life partner by a formal exchange of promises in the manner of a traditional marriage ceremony. 6. to combine, connect, or join so as to make more efficient, attractive, or profitable: The latest cameras marry automatic and manual features. A recent merger marries two of the nation's largest corporations. 7. Nautical. a. to lay together (the unlaid strands of two ropes) to be spliced. b. to seize (two ropes) together end to end for use as a single line. c. to seize (parallel ropes) together at intervals. 8. to cause (food, liquor, etc.) to blend with other ingredients: to marry malt whiskey with grain whiskey.
–verb (used without object) 9. to take a husband or wife; wed. 10. (of two or more foods, wines, etc.) to combine suitably or agreeably; blend: This wine and the strong cheese just don't marry.

No I am not claiming to be the arbiter of what is and isn't marriage. If I was I wouldn't use dictionary.com and the bible to back me up. That is not the case. Just connecting the dots appropriately and logically from the bible.

Under the definition in the bible it is not sexual immorality for married couples(Husband/Wife or Man/Woman) to have sex. Again the situation is not about married people. The situation was about a person who is unmarried. Let's stay focus.

Remember: Fornication is what a person does when he/she is unmarried to another person in sexual intercourse. Before marriage.... This is sexual immorality.

So since you say that people who aren't married who have sex is considered sexual immorality then does this definition of fornication apply to only Heterosexuals?

No, it applies to all unmarried persons, gay or straight. But again, you are not the one who decides whether or not a couple is married. Look again at definition number 5 in the dictionary entry you quote.

I'm assuming that you are planning to claim that all gay sex is fornication because no gay couple is married. That is a point that I will not agree to let you lead me to.
 
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HaloHope

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mar⋅ry at dictionary.com


1   /ˈmær
thinsp.png
i/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mar-ee] Show IPA verb, -ried, -ry⋅ing.Use marry in a Sentence

–verb (used with object) 1. to take as a husband or wife; take in marriage: Susan married Ed. 2. to perform the marriage ceremonies for (two people who wish to be husband and wife); join in wedlock: The minister married Susan and Ed. 3. to give in marriage; arrange the marriage of (often fol. by off): Her father wants to marry her to his friend's son. They want to marry off all their children before selling their big home. 4. to unite intimately: Common economic interests marry the two countries. 5. to take as an intimate life partner by a formal exchange of promises in the manner of a traditional marriage ceremony. 6. to combine, connect, or join so as to make more efficient, attractive, or profitable: The latest cameras marry automatic and manual features. A recent merger marries two of the nation's largest corporations. 7. Nautical. a. to lay together (the unlaid strands of two ropes) to be spliced. b. to seize (two ropes) together end to end for use as a single line. c. to seize (parallel ropes) together at intervals. 8. to cause (food, liquor, etc.) to blend with other ingredients: to marry malt whiskey with grain whiskey.
–verb (used without object) 9. to take a husband or wife; wed. 10. (of two or more foods, wines, etc.) to combine suitably or agreeably; blend: This wine and the strong cheese just don't marry.

No I am not claiming to be the arbiter of what is and isn't marriage. If I was I wouldn't use dictionary.com and the bible to back me up. That is not the case. Just connecting the dots appropriately and logically from the bible.

Under the definition in the bible it is not sexual immorality for married couples(Husband/Wife or Man/Woman) to have sex. Again the situation is not about married people. The situation was about a person who is unmarried. Let's stay focus.

Remember: Fornication is what a person does when he/she is unmarried to another person in sexual intercourse. Before marriage.... This is sexual immorality.

So since you say that people who aren't married who have sex is considered sexual immorality then does this definition of fornication apply to only Heterosexuals?

Erm you do realise that definition number 5 on your dictionary definition easily cover same-sex marriage right?
 
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Jadin Xquire

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Actually, there's no contradiction in those two statements. In order to produce a contradiction, there must be a third statement, which would be something like 'Chris (me) believes that all translations of the Bible that translate the Greek as 'fornication' are valid' or 'Chris holds the Bible to be eternally true and binding regarding fornication' etc etc

I recognize that marriage, which ties into the definition of fornication, is a cultural, social institution, and has very large differences between today and Rome/Israel/Babylon millenia ago.

con⋅tra⋅dic⋅tion

   /ˌkɒn
thinsp.png
trəˈdɪk
thinsp.png
ʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kon-truh-dik-shuh
thinsp.png
n] Show IPA Use contradiction in a Sentence

–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition. 2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial. 3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous. 4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency. 5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

Third statement is not need according to definition 4. All is needed is 2 or more. Three could be the case but 2 is the minimum requirement. Your post was contradicting. You state on one side that you acknowledge fornication is sexual immorality. According to the bible, God isn't "ok" with Sexual Immorality. Then you say the contradiction by stating you think it is ok for open sex to take place before marriage. Now you have the decision. If you want to have sex before marriage that is all on your decision. It might make God angry, but that will be between you and God. My business is not to judge the world and Christians who struggle with sin. All I can do is show love and help my brothers and sisters in Christ out as much as I can in leading them with what the bible teaches Christians to behave. Not to be legalistic and not to abuse the Grace of God with willful sins. If a "Brother or Sister" in Christ doesn't care then Paul instructs us to not even eat with people like them. Paul Judges them. They are worse than the people of the world.


How exactly does marriage and fornication tie together? I could understand Adultery happening but how is it possible for fornication to take place when a person is married already?

 
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Jadin Xquire

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Erm you do realise that definition number 5 on your dictionary definition easily cover same-sex marriage right?

Yes according to societies. Does the bible promote same-sex marriages too? What clear verse, in the bible, does it state that God promotes same-sex marriages? First marriage was establish by God. Then humans took what God started and continued the ritual of marriage.

Genesis 2:22-25 (New International Version)

22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [a] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [b] '
for she was taken out of man."
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man(Adam) and his wife(Eve) were both naked, and they felt no shame.


One of God's gift to man is marriage. Now I could be wrong and I miss the verse were God honors a man and man to marry or women to women to marry.


All I am saying is if I possibly missed that verse. Could someone point it out then this debate could finally end, but if there is no clear verse to support same-sex marriage than it doesn't look good on the people who think it is ok. Who compromise with sin in Christianity. I'm not homophobic. I talk to the people of the world all the time. I tell them to get saved just as I tell everyone else. It's not right to gay-bash, but it isn't right to decieve someone from the truth either.
 
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Jadin Xquire

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No, it applies to all unmarried persons, gay or straight. But again, you are not the one who decides whether or not a couple is married. Look again at definition number 5 in the dictionary entry you quote.

I'm assuming that you are planning to claim that all gay sex is fornication because no gay couple is married. That is a point that I will not agree to let you lead me to.

Well according to your answer on fornication is "it applies to all unmarried persons, gay or straight". Just like you said it. If your quote applies to me then it also applies to everyone here..."But again, you are not the one who decides whether or not a couple is married." What makes your word more valuable than mines and vice versa? That is why I am not just plainly stating this is what I believe because "I said this means....". I am using documentation from reliable sources. If you disagree then you are disagreeing with the sources and not me. So far you have agreed with the entirety of the definition, fornication, from dictionary.com. It wasn't my word but your words that confirmed an unmarried homosexual that has sex is acting under the definition of sexual immorality.

You stated that fornication, either an unmarried homo- or hetero-, is considered sexual immorality. Then you stated "I'm assuming that you are planning to claim that all gay sex is fornication because no gay couple is married. That is a point that I will not agree to let you lead me to." This a contradiction on your part. It is either you believe unmarried people, hetero- or Homo-, having open sex is sexual immorality or not. From your previous posts it is clear you believe it is sexual immorality. Since you are a brother in Christ then I am here to help out as much as I can.

If I am doing a willful sin then by all means Judge me. I give that right for all Christians to examine me under a microscope. If I didn't allow you then I would be a hypocrite for point out proud sins in Chrisitians. That wouldn't be fair of me if I didn't allow. Judge me with the same measure. Since I haven't had sex with a woman as of April/2008 till now could you really judge me on Sexual Immorality? No, unless I turn back to my old ways. I won't deny it, it was hard to quit but I am a living example that God works miracles. It was not my will to stop, but God's will in my life. If it were up to me, in my own strength, then I would have had sex again a long time ago.

Yes society has changes from generation to generation. I don't deny that. Sex is only honorable within the union of marriage. Gay or Not, sex before marriage is still sexual immorality. Homosexual acts from an unmarried person is sexual immorality.

Maybe I missed it in the bible. Where does it state in the bible, in OT and NT, that homosexual marriage is honored by God?

OT is still in effect. Jesus did state it.

Matthew 5:17-18 (New International Version)

The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Law still stands on the subject of Homosexuality. It is an abomination.
 
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Jadin Xquire

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Let see what historians wrote about sodomy in closer times than now.

Sodomy (pronounced /ˈsɒdəmi/) is a term used today predominantly in law (derived from traditional Christian usage) to describe the act of anal intercourse, oral intercourse, or bestiality.

Philo

The Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo (20 BC - 50 AD) described the inhabitants of Sodom in an extra biblical account:

"As men, being unable to bear discreetly a satiety of these things, get restive like cattle, and become stiff-necked, and discard the laws of nature, pursuing a great and intemperate indulgence of gluttony, and drinking, and unlawful connections; for not only did they go mad after other women, and defile the marriage bed of others, but also those who were men lusted after one another, doing unseemly things, and not regarding or respecting their common nature, and though eager for children, they were convicted by having only an abortive offspring; but the conviction produced no advantage, since they were overcome by violent desire; and so by degrees, the men became accustomed to be treated like women, and in this way engendered among themselves the disease of females, and intolerable evil; for they not only, as to effeminacy and delicacy, became like women in their persons, but they also made their souls most ignoble, corrupting in this way the whole race of men, as far as depended on them" (133-35; ET Jonge 422-23)

Josephus

The Jewish historian Josephus used the term “Sodomites” in summarizing the Genesis narrative: “About this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth; they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God, in so much that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices” "Now when the Sodomites saw the young men to be of beautiful countenances, and this to an extraordinary degree, and that they took up their lodgings with Lot, they resolved themselves to enjoy these beautiful boys by force and violence; and when Lot exhorted them to sobriety, and not to offer any thing immodest to the strangers, but to have regard to their lodging in his house; and promised that if their inclinations could not be governed, he would expose his daughters to their lust, instead of these strangers; neither thus were they made ashamed." (Antiquities 1.11.1,3 [1] — circa A.D. 96). His assessment goes beyond the Biblical data, though it is seen by conservatives as defining what manner of fornication (Jude 1:7) Sodom was given to.


Justinian I and Byzantine power politics of late antiquity

The primarily sexual meaning of the word sodomia for Christians did not evolve before the 500s AD. Byzantine Emperor Justinian I, in his novels no. 77 (dating 538) and no. 141 (dating 559) amended to his Corpus iuris civilis, and declared that Sodom's sin had been specifically same-sex activities and desire for them. He also linked "famines, earthquakes, and pestilences" upon cities as being due to "such crimes",[2] during a time of recent earthquakes and other disasters.

Justinian's were not the first Roman laws prohibiting homosexual behavior. Earlier such measures had been included in the Lex Scantinia dating from 149 BC and the Lex Julia dating from 17 BC, both constituting the death penalty for homosexual behavior. Allegations exist that even before Lex Scantinia such laws existed, but direct evidence of these laws has been lost[3][4][5][6][7][8][9]. While adhering to the death penalty by beheading as punishment for homosexuality or adultery, Justinian's legal novels heralded a change in Roman legal paradigm in that he introduced a concept of not only mundane but also divine punishment for homosexual behavior. Individuals might ignore and escape mundane laws, but they could not do the same with divine laws, if Justinian declared his novels to be such.

Christians earlier than Justinian are also seen to denounce same-sex relations. St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century regarded such as worse than murder in his fourth homily on Romans 1:26,27 [3], while Paul the Apostle in the Epistle to the Romans referred to same sex relations as "shameful lust" and which acts were contrary to nature, with men suffering a "due penalty" in their bodies. Just like the Jews, early Christians prior to Justinian I are not known to have used the word sodomia for the carnal sin they abhorred, though Philo of Alexandria (20 BC - 50 AD)[10] and Methodius of Olympus (AD 260-312)[11] attributed homosexual relations to Sodom, as may have Josephus, (AD 37 – c. 100)[12][13] Augustine of Hippo, (AD 354-430)[14] and certain pseudepigraphacal texts.[15][16][17]

Sodomy laws in the United States

From the earliest times in the United States, sodomy (variously defined) was prohibited, although some historians suggest that early sodomy laws were mainly used to address issues of non-consensual behavior, or public behavior. The earliest known United States law journal article dealing with sodomy was in 1905 in West Virginia. Attorney E.D. Leach argued that "perverted sexual natures" were related to crime. "Sodomy, rape, lust-murder, bodily injury, theft, robbery, torture of animals, injury to property and many other crimes may be committed under these conditions." 18th and 19th century judges often editorialized about the act of sodomy as they handed down their rulings. "That most detestable sin", the "horrid act", "the horrible crime", "that which is unfit to be named among Christians" characterized some of the language used by British and American jurists when punishing sodomites. Emphasis is usually on the notion that the act of anal penetration is so offensive "to God almighty" that the term Sodomy (literally, that which occurred in Sodom) is the only appropriate way of designating the activity. In other words, it was understood that when reference was made to "an unspeakable act" having occurred, it was clear that the act in question was none other than anal penetration. Some say, however, that the "Sin of Sodom" accurately referred not to anal penetration but rather to the agglomeration of ALL the unholy activities said to have occurred in Sodom and that it is thus inaccurate to imply a one-to-one relationship.

In the 1950s, all states had some form of law criminalizing sodomy, and in 1986 the United States Supreme Court ruled that nothing in the United States Constitution bars a state from prohibiting sodomy. However, state legislators and state courts had started to repeal or overturn their sodomy laws, beginning with Illinois in 1961, and thus in 2003, only 10 states had laws prohibiting all sodomy, with penalties ranging from 1 to 15 years imprisonment. Additionally, four other states had laws that specifically prohibited same-sex sodomy. That year the United States Supreme Court reversed its 1986 Bowers v. Hardwick ruling and in Lawrence v. Texas, invalidated these laws as being an unconstitutional violation of privacy, with Sandra Day O'Connor's concurring opinion arguing that they violated equal protection. See Sodomy law.

In the U.S. military, the United States Army Court of Criminal Appeals has ruled that the Lawrence v. Texas decision applies to Article 125 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the statute banning sodomy. In both United States v. Stirewalt and United States v. Marcum, the court ruled that the "conduct falls within the liberty interest identified by the Supreme Court."[18] However, the court went on to say that despite Lawrence's application to the military, Article 125 can still be upheld in cases where there are "factors unique to the military environment" which would place the conduct "outside any protected liberty interest recognized in Lawrence."[19] Examples of such factors could be fraternization, public sexual behavior, or any other factors that would adversely affect good order and discipline.

United States v. Meno and United States v. Bullock are two known cases in which consensual sodomy convictions have been overturned in military courts under the Lawrence precedent.[20]

Evolution of the term in other languages

In modern French, the word “sodomie” (and in modern Spanish, the word “sodomía”) is used exclusively for penetrative anal sex (where the penetration is performed with a penis or a substitute of similar shape such as a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], possibly a strap-on [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], thus any gender can be on the giving or receiving end). The matching French verb is "sodomiser" (Spanish "sodomizar"). In modern German, the word “Sodomie” has no connotation of anal or oral sex, and refers specifically to zoophilia. (See Paragraph 175 StGB, version of June 28, 1935. Google It if you wish.) The same goes for the Norwegian word “sodomi” and the Polish "sodomia". “Sodomy”, therefore, can be considered a 'false friend,' a word that English speakers will think they know the meaning of, but which actually holds a different, though in this case related, meaning. Responsible for this was the broadening of the term sodomia by Benedictus Levita.

Popular use


The word "sod", a noun or verb (to "sod off") used as an insult, derives from sodomite.[21][1] It is a general-purpose insult term for anyone the speaker dislikes or despises, without specific reference to their sexual behaviour. Sod is used as slang in the UK and Commonwealth and is mildly offensive.


Notes:
~1 ^ sodomy laws
~2 trans. in Derrick Sherwin Bailey, Homosexuality and the Western Christian Tradition, (London: Longmans, Green, 1955), 73-74
~3 ^ VALERI MAXIMI FACTORVM ET DICTORVM MEMORABILIVM LIBRI NOVEM, volume VI, section V ff
~4 ^ Article on struprum cum mastulo by W. Kroll in Pauly-Wissowa (ed.), Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft, 1921
~5 ^ On supplicium fustuarium, public beating to death for same-sex behavior in Rome long before Lex scantinia, see Polybios, The Histories, volume VI, chapter 37
~6 ^ See article Päderastie by M. H. E. Meier in Ersch & Gruber (eds.), Allgemeine Encyclopädie der Wissenschaften und Künste
~7 ^ Theodor Mommsen, Römisches Strafrecht, 1899, p. 703f (in English as Roman Criminal Law)
~8 ^ Wilhelm Rein, Das Criminalrecht der Römer von Romulus bis auf Justinianus ("Roman Criminal Law from Romulus up to Justinian I"), 1844, p. 864
~9 ^ Gisela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg, Tabu Homosexualität - Die Geschichte eines Vorurteils ("The taboo of homosexuality: The history of a prejudice"), 1978, p. 187
~10 ^ Jewish philosopher, Writing on the life of Abraham
~11 ^ Commentary on the sin of Sodom
~12 ^ Antiquities 1.11.1
~13 ^ 33-34; ET Jonge 422-23; The Sodom tradition in Romans Biblical Theology Bulletin, Spring, 2004 by Philip F. Esler
~14 ^ Confessions. Commenting on the story of Sodom from Genesis 19
~15 ^ Testament of Benjamin; Concerning a Pure Mind, 9:1
~16 ^ Testament of Naphtali, 3.5
~17 ^ Book of the Secrets of Enoch (Slavonic Apocalypse of) 10:4; in J recension Ch. I.118 (late 1st cent. AD)

~18^
U.S. v. Stirewalt
~19^
U.S. v. Marcum
~20^
United States v. Meno, United States Court of Criminal Appeals
~21 Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary. Main Entry: sod[3,noun]. "Etymology: short for sodomite. Date: 1818."]
 
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OllieFranz

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Well according to your answer on fornication is "it applies to all unmarried persons, gay or straight". Just like you said it. If your quote applies to me then it also applies to everyone here..."But again, you are not the one who decides whether or not a couple is married." What makes your word more valuable than mines and vice versa? That is why I am not just plainly stating this is what I believe because "I said this means....". I am using documentation from reliable sources. If you disagree then you are disagreeing with the sources and not me. So far you have agreed with the entirety of the definition, fornication, from dictionary.com. It wasn't my word but your words that confirmed an unmarried homosexual that has sex is acting under the definition of sexual immorality.

You stated that fornication, either an unmarried homo- or hetero-, is considered sexual immorality. Then you stated "I'm assuming that you are planning to claim that all gay sex is fornication because no gay couple is married. That is a point that I will not agree to let you lead me to." This a contradiction on your part. It is either you believe unmarried people, hetero- or Homo-, having open sex is sexual immorality or not. From your previous posts it is clear you believe it is sexual immorality. Since you are a brother in Christ then I am here to help out as much as I can.

If I am doing a willful sin then by all means Judge me. I give that right for all Christians to examine me under a microscope. If I didn't allow you then I would be a hypocrite for point out proud sins in Chrisitians. That wouldn't be fair of me if I didn't allow. Judge me with the same measure. Since I haven't had sex with a woman as of April/2008 till now could you really judge me on Sexual Immorality? No, unless I turn back to my old ways. I won't deny it, it was hard to quit but I am a living example that God works miracles. It was not my will to stop, but God's will in my life. If it were up to me, in my own strength, then I would have had sex again a long time ago.

Yes society has changes from generation to generation. I don't deny that. Sex is only honorable within the union of marriage. Gay or Not, sex before marriage is still sexual immorality. Homosexual acts from an unmarried person is sexual immorality.

Maybe I missed it in the bible. Where does it state in the bible, in OT and NT, that homosexual marriage is honored by God?

OT is still in effect. Jesus did state it.

Matthew 5:17-18 (New International Version)

The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Law still stands on the subject of Homosexuality. It is an abomination.

OK it's my turn to use the "Socratic method."

You asked if the Bible approves same-sex marriage. Let's look at the Bible.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
1 Corinthians 10:13
Question 1: Do you believe that God allows temptation that we cannot overcome?
 
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Gareth

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I wonder if anyone has mused whether Jesus Christ agreed that homosexuality was a grevious sin. He was born into a society that put gays to death for doing something that according to the Mosaic Law was an unnatural act. Just as sex outside the bonds of marriage was a capital sin so also was gay sex. Yet Jesus knew we all could change for the better if given the chance.

You may recall from the Gospels (John chpt.8) the account of the time when a woman was caught in the act of committing adultery and taken to Jesus to test him. He was writing in the sand and would not reply. When his opposers persisted he said, "Let the one of you that is sinless be the first to throw a stone at her." Then all these people gradually left until he was alone with the woman. What is said next is of great interest to all because people can be weighed down with the burden of their own sinful life they may think God and Jesus are not interested in them.

Jesus said, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" The woman replied, "No one, sir." Then Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way; from now on practice sin no more."

The woman now had a chance to show that if she really wanted to she could make a better life for herself. She was like all of us a sinful person, yet Jesus said to her not to practice sin anymore, in other words carry on as an adulteress. So the same would be true of a gay person who wishes to be a Christian of the highest order. What they are as a gay person becomes what they were. God does not tolerate the anything goes mentality of today's world which is supported by many in society. The verse of scripture found in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 shows to what lengths people are prepared to go if it means God will become a major influence in their lives. Look at the list of people what God says will not enter into His Kingdom. Anyone you know? Then see what Paul says next. It is a verse that cannot be overturned, or a way found round for those who think God's standards can be watered down to suit modern standards.
 
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Jadin Xquire

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OK it's my turn to use the "Socratic method."

You asked if the Bible approves same-sex marriage. Let's look at the Bible.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
1 Corinthians 10:13
Question 1: Do you believe that God allows temptation that we cannot overcome?

1 Corinthians 10:13 (New International Version)

13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.


Like the verse saids we are not tempted beyond what we can handle. That means a homosexual has his/her trials but Jesus shows them a door for a way out. At that point it is up to the individual to escape temptation of homosexuality. If the person doesn't choose to then it isn't the Lord's fault. That individual then practices lawlessness. You can lead a horse to the water but you can't force the horse to drink. People will be helped when they want. If decide to stay in sin then what more could the Lord do? The Lord won't force people to stop sinning. Then it is on the fault of the homosexual and not on the Lord.



I just notice you changed the subject. How does 1 Corinthians 10:13 related to same-sex marriages? It doesn't even hint anything to do with sexual orientation. It doesn't even address marriage. What does 1 Corinthians 10:13 have to do with what we talked about before? Maybe there is a point to your post and I simply missed it.
 
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OllieFranz

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1 Corinthians 10:13 (New International Version)

13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.


Like the verse saids we are not tempted beyond what we can handle. That means a homosexual has his/her trials but Jesus shows them a door for a way out. At that point it is up to the individual to escape temptation of homosexuality. If the person doesn't choose to then it isn't the Lord's fault. That individual then practices lawlessness. You can lead a horse to the water but you can't force the horse to drink. People will be helped when they want. If decide to stay in sin then what more could the Lord do? The Lord won't force people to stop sinning. Then it is on the fault of the homosexual and not on the Lord.



I just notice you changed the subject. How does 1 Corinthians 10:13 related to same-sex marriages? It doesn't even hint anything to do with sexual orientation. It doesn't even address marriage. What does 1 Corinthians 10:13 have to do with what we talked about before? Maybe there is a point to your post and I simply missed it.

Be patient. As I said it was only the first question.

So you do agree, that, in the Bible, God promises we will not be tempted above our ability to avoid sin, that He gives us the power to resist, or a way to escape?

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
1 Corinthians 12:1-11

Question 2: Do you believe that the Bible tells us that Holy Spirit gives us special gifts in order to fulfill the specific missions that He gives us in building and ministering to the Church and to the world? And that different people get different gifts?
 
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