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Homosexuality - Here I stand.
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Tissue
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Unfortunately, in my experience, this isn't true. As a Christian, I believe I am equipped with the Spirit. I disagree with you, who are equipped with the Spirit. You and I disagree with others, who are equipped with the Spirit.
If I want to discover the proper interpretation of a verse, I will go to an individual who has a degree. It is foolishness for the uneducated to assume that they have all the benefits of an education purely through the blessing of the Spirit.
Oh, so that's what you mean.
I'm asking for knowledge about a verse. You don't have it. You have wisdom, but what is wisdom built upon faulty knowledge? Would it not be better to know the truth and not know how to react to it than to react to a falsehood?
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if i could recall we did agree with the definition on fornication. Then you changed your mind. Since we interacted I haven't changed at all on the subject. You even said you acknowledged the bible saids fornication is part of sexual immorality.
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Tissue
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I haven't changed my mind. You posted what the dictionary lists as the definition of fornication. I agree with that definition. When I use the word, it's what I mean.
Upon reflection, however, I find it quite likely that 'fornication' is not an entirely accurate translation of the original Greek, and even if it were, it would only be accurate in relation to the status of the institution of marriage in the time of which it was written, and not all institutions of marriage for all time (particularly as the Bible does not explicitly outline a model for marriage, beyond the very general 'man, woman, one flesh', which is coupled with the command to procreate, and which was given to two specific people in the creation myth).
Upon reflection, however, I find it quite likely that 'fornication' is not an entirely accurate translation of the original Greek, and even if it were, it would only be accurate in relation to the status of the institution of marriage in the time of which it was written, and not all institutions of marriage for all time (particularly as the Bible does not explicitly outline a model for marriage, beyond the very general 'man, woman, one flesh', which is coupled with the command to procreate, and which was given to two specific people in the creation myth).
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In the verse below the Jews, that were in the law but converted to Christianity with the Pharisee mentality still in place, had a meeting with the Apostles. They disputed among each other what the gentile should follow the law. The Apostle did a football huttle then James spoke this verse to the Jew Christians with the mindset, still as a Pharisee, concerning the Gentile Christians on what they should do.........
Acts 15:20 (King James Version)
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
The word for "from fornication" is this definition from Stong's Greek.
porneuo (porn-yoo'-o) From porne; to act the harlot, i.e. (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry -- commit (fornication).
Do you see the dashes "--" in that definition? All the words(in red) before those dashes are from the original Greek of the time(1st Century A.D.). The words after the "--" is what Strong's Greek for modern times use of Greek(2000's). The definition really has not changed in meaning/context. Pick up a James Strong lexicon, if you don't believe me. Read the pages before the actual Greek-English section. It gives you instructions on how to read the format of the definitions.
So basically.....Fornication in Greek 1 Century A.D. is the same fornication as of today. There are three parts to fornication in the NT: The first being fornication (pre-marital, illicit sex), the second being adultery (marital, illicit sex), and the third being idolatry (worship of a person or thing besides Yahweh).
The James Strong Greek-English is on point. What more can you get out of it? You get the meaning of the word in Jesus time and the times for now. That is awesome. Yes, I get the wisdom and understand from the Holy Spirit. James Strong's teachings is just a bonus. You don't need a degree in Greek to understand the Greek in Jesus' time. James Strong helps you do that.
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If you still don't believe then I'm not the one to convince. I can only plant the seed. God is the one who waters the seed. I'm not forcing you to believe or not to believe. Make your own decision. Fornication in context back then is the same as of now thanks to Strong. Now from Strong's greek to a regular greek dictionary is different. The regular greek dictionary of today is only going to show the meaning of today's usage of the Greek language. A scholar's dictionary of Greek is different.
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Tissue
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Unlawful according to what law?
This is an important sentence in your argument, and unfortunately, it is illegible. If you mean to say that the words in blue are the modern use, then it is lunacy to apply modern definitions to an older word.
I see nothing in the red text that specifically refers to pre-marital sex. 'Unlawful' is a terribly broad word.
Part of the value a degree would provide would be to enhance one's understanding of language. There's more to translation than converting words.
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Tissue
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Cheeky. You're using conversion language to speak of your opinion in an argument. How can you be so sure you're right? You don't even know anything about the original Greek! God isn't going to water some seed in my heart or brain to convince me that the Greek is properly translated. I'll need to dive into academics to do that. Myself.
If you don't convince someone else, it could be your fault, or your argument's fault. You certainly don't expect to plant seeds in people's hearts over political discussions, then expect God to follow up with a watering can, do you?
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Like I said you don't have to believe. The words before the dashes are in original Greek of Jesus time. Principles change from culture to culture. I agree with that.
Hebrews 13:8 (New International Version)
8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
God doesn't change his principles. In the OT, fornication is the same as NT in meaning. It is the same as of today. Maybe the laws of the land, now, don't punish such activities as back then. That doesn't mean God is pleased and honors with fornication. God is still against sex before marriage.
If I told you "Caballos" isn't it the same as "Horse"? One is in Spanish and the other is English. The only difference in the two is the language. The meaning is the same. I'm not so concern for the "appearance" of Greek words. I am more concern with the "meaning" of the Greek words.
How can I be sure what James Strong's saids? If he is wrong then his study in the language is in vain. It all comes down to faith, my friend. Everyone that is reading this post understand what faith is. I never saw Jesus. Nor have you. I'm believing by faith He is the Messiah/God that was prophesied in the Tanakh. Do I have tangible proof that he is the Messiah? No, I don't. Some say it is blind faith. I say if I died I am hoping and believe that this Jesus will give me salvation. If Christianity isn't true when we die then he have done this in vain, but I will still believe. My proof is on my feeling the Holy Spirit in my life. That is my proof.
Same concept of the people that lived before us. If Strong is incorrect than it is all in vain KJV, NKJV, NIV, CEV, NLT, etc translating the OT and NT. If the translations are incorrect then do we really have salvation from God? I'm believing by faith that Strong's understanding the 1st Century A.D. Greek Language is correct. Because of Strong's Greek I am able to read the OT and NT and understand Salvation is only through Jesus. When the Scribes kept writing and translating, God was making sure his word exists in correct meaning on earth. No matter what language, God is behind it. Beside's Strong's school education, God made sure Strong understood His(God's) word in Hebrew/Greek. If you don't have faith that God was behind/helping Strong's understanding of the Hebrew/Greek language of the time, then that is your decision. Jesus Christ did the same thing to the Jews(Judaism) who didn't believe him. He called them stiff-neck for unbelief. I don't know what else to tell you but do the research yourself and hope that God shows it to you.
That's what the James Strong's Hebrew/Greek translator is. It not only converts the words but also the meaning/context/translations of the words. Its really if you believe his word or not. Your belief and Mine is not require to make James Strong's Greek valid. He did is dues in learning at school. His Greek is accurate to the original Greek.
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Many Scholar's acknowledge Strong's work. For more than a century, students(Scholars;Theologians;etc...) have turned to Strong's WordStudy for basic identifications of the Greek and Hebrew words behind the words of the English Bible. Now, his expanded edition(Edited by Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D.) features sections that give extended definitions, plus an index of proper names in the Bible.
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If we can't trust the people who did the studies(inspired by the Holy Spirit) on this subject then who else can we trust?
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Tissue
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That may be true, but the way in which his principles are realized in a social context may change. Perhaps his sex principle is 'Sex is meant as an expression of committed love'. In the cultures present in the Bible, perhaps that amounted to sex within marriage. Perhaps today it wouldn't.
I highly doubt that.
I disagree.
They are, I am sure, differences between the two, likely in the general mental image that is generated when a native speaker hears the word.
At any rate, there is a very large difference between nouns which speak of concrete objects (like horses) and nouns which describe somewhat more abstract notions (such as 'fornication'; that is, sex before marriage).
Using a Greek-English dictionary is helpful for that endeavor, but it is not 100% perfect. Perhaps there are concepts in one language that cannot be properly represented in English (I can't think of any examples, beyond one German word which I do not recall, but I have heard of several).
This is really weird. I don't think 'faith' is the right concept to describe what you're talking about here.
Sure. Go read the Greek original.
Translations aren't bad. It's not like there's no connection whatsoever between a translation and the original text. I'm just saying we should be cautious.
God's Word is Jesus. Not the Bible.
Why do you have faith in Strong, and not some other Greek scholar? Why did you pick this guy, out of all of them, and (to use an informal expression) decide to have his kids?
This is baloney. You've got a closed mind. I'm wasting my time here.
You're not even listening, are you? You're just noticing that I'm disagreeing, and throwing your hands up in the air, and saying 'Oh dang. Time to knock the dust off my shoes. Looks like my words of truth aren't being accepted here.'
The idea that God is somehow going to enlighten me to believe your view is arrogant and absurd.
You have no idea whatsoever if it's accurate to the original Greek. None. You're not a Greek scholar. You found this guy, you found his book, and said, 'Huh. I think I'll stick along for the ride, and radically affirm everything he has written.'
I'll bet you don't know squat about James Strong (this is not, by the way, an invitation to write an unsourced precis of a wikipedia article). You certainly don't know what his academic life was, or the interior of his heart.
One question, with a conjunction: Do you have an open mind, and are you willing to engage in an open discussion with that open mind?
If the answer is 'No', then you are wasting your time, just as I am wasting mine.
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Yes I don't mind. Like I said you don't have to believe like I said before. Nor do you have to get nasty about it either. Just because we may disagree does not mean I am close minded. Have I ever told you to "Shut up" before? No I haven't. I've read your post with an open mind. For instance, fornication as the subject. You have agreed with the current definition of "fornication". I have given you the original Greek definition of "fornication". They are so close that I didn't notice any difference in of that defintion on fornication. The reason I pick Strongs is because his WordStudy is one of the few that has Original Greek "--" Modern Greek that we have today. One of the best. Since I am open minded for this discussion, What is the Hebrew/Greek/English translator do you use?
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Tissue
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What? You said that the 'blue' part of your definition was the modern definition. The only part that said that the original Greek word meant 'to commit formication' was the modern usage. That certainly isn't an indication that that is what was meant in the original.
At best, it forbids 'unlawful' sex, and that is a terribly broad concept.
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1 Timothy 1:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators(pornos), for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
Paul is the writer of this book of 1 Timothy.
4205. pornos (por'-nos):
From pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of piprasko); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine) -- fornicator,whoremonger.
Fornicators in this verse is a male prostitute. We know that prostitutes are paid with what ever the currency of the time for sex. The client could either be male or female. Homosexual fornicator or Heterosexual fornicator. Either way it was a fornicator according to the original Greek language of 1 century A.D. Now after the "--" it is modern day term fornicator in Greek. That term is equivalent to the term before "--".
Fornicator is someone who has sex before marriage. According to v. 10 the fornicator that meant back then (1st Century A.D.) like it is "contrary to sound doctrine,". This verse indicates that a person having sex before marriage is against sound doctrine of Christianity in 1st Century A.D.
See I don't have a denomination. I follow what was doctrine according to the Primitive Church. Any "altered" doctrine to this is false. What ever the apostles' doctrine was is what I follow.
You say you get advice from your source(Scholar in Greek). Ask your scholar if he respects James Strong's teachings. Most likely he/she will. James Strong has develop scholars from more than a Century.
James Strong (August 14, 1822 – August 7, 1894) was an American Methodist biblical scholar and educator, and the creator of Strong's Concordance. He was born in New York City; was Professor of Biblical Literature at Troy University in 1858-61, became Professor of Exegetical Theology at Drew Theological Seminary in 1868 and died at Round Lake, New York.
His best known work is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, first published in 1890, of which new editions are still in print as of 2006[update]. Adaptations (e.g. Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible: 21st Century Edition) are also now available.
For the concordance, Strong numbered every Hebrew or Greek root word which was found, for ease of reference. This numbering system (8674 Hebrew roots and 5523 Greek roots) is now used in works by many other writers and is widely available on the web[1] where it is used in conjunction with Wigram's Englishman's Concordances and Thayer's Lexicon.
A few will disagree with James Strong. That is a few. If you question 100 scholars about James Strong. You could find one or two that disagree with Dr. Strong. Most Scholars today agree with his work and are taught by his work. His work is one of the best.
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Tissue: I think you miss the question and that is understandable. What is the Hebrew/Greek/English translator do you use?
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Tissue
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You just said that the original Greek for that word meant 'male prostitutes'. Perhaps that is all Paul meant: prostitutes who worked in the local temples, and NOT those who had pre-marital sex?
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male product is the by-product to fornicator. An example for fornicator. Male prostitute is the stereo-type of this definition in the original Greek language.
If you look at the other definition it never mention male prostitute.
From Mark 7:21(KJV) the fornication in this verse is porneia.
4202. porneia (por-ni'-ah) From porneuo; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry -- fornication.
Porneia is from porneuo.
4203. porneuo (porn-yoo'-o) From porne; to act the harlot, i.e. (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry -- commit (fornication).
porneuo is from porne.
4204. porne (por'-nay) Feminine of pornoshttp://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4205.htm; a strumpet; figuratively, an idolater -- harlot, harlot.
So on and so forth.....
If one goes in depth with the word "Fornication" in the original Greek it never mentions male prostitute. Male prostitute was an example for "Fornicator". Anyone could fornicate if that person wasn't married engage in homo- or hetero- sexual intercourse with another person. The best example I could think of is "male prostitute" is a by-product to "fornicator" in the original Greek.
What does by-product mean? For example, a by-product is something that is an unintended but unavoidable result of producing your main product. The by-product could be useful or not. For instance, gold is usually found in combination with either copper, brass, silver, or platinum. When the gold is refined, you also refine the other metal and you have a byproduct of silver, e.g.
Male prostitute is a by-product for "fornicator". It is unintentional but it is an example of what a fornicator is.
What are you intentions? Is it your intention to look for a "loop-hole" to justify sex before marriage with the bible?
Since I have opened up with my situation on sexual immorality, I will ask you a question if you don't mind. I can't seem to understand why you defend sex before marriage. Please help me understand because I am ignorant on the reason why you stand up for such a subject.
Are you a virgin or are you married? If not married have you had sex while being single?
I ask because most people will defend a subject if they themselves are involved with the subject. I think you defend sex before marriage because you have engaged with it in sexual activity before marriage. Of course, correct me if I am wrong.
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