Homosexuality - Here I stand.

[one11]

Originally Posted by Thaeoles

Just because David and Jonathan were best friends does not make them gay. I think you're reading too much into that.

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My answer is really to wayseer's response of above.

David and Jonathan were not gay, homosexual lovers.

The story is about about agape, philo and eros love.

The story also relates to when Jesus said "No greater love is this than to lay down his life for his friends."

When David said Jonathan's love was greater than that of women he was speaking about agape love being greater than eros love and that is all.



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[HaloHope]

Originally Posted by Thaeoles

Just because David and Jonathan were best friends does not make them gay. I think you're reading too much into that.

_______________________---_______________________---

My answer is really to wayseer's response of above.

David and Jonathan were not gay, homosexual lovers.

The story is about about agape, philo and eros love.

The story also relates to when Jesus said "No greater love is this than to lay down his life for his friends."

When David said Jonathan's love was greater than that of women he was speaking about agape love being greater than eros love and that is all.




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There no real evidence that it's talking about purely agape love though. The section in question uses the same words and phrases used to describe romantic hetrosexual relationships in the Bible but about Jonathan and David. I remember reading it before I was a Christian and before Id even realised my own sexuality and thinking "theyre clearly very, very gay.." . I feel theres several parts of the story that indicate they had a homosexual relationship.

However thats just my opinion unless one of us were actually there, there is no way of knowing if the relationship between them was homosexual in nature or not.

 

[Zeena]

Do you find such a thought embarrassing? Jesus may well have been a homosexual for all we know. He trapped all over the countryside with a group of men. He did not marry, did not have a family of his own and apart from his mother the women in his life were either prostitutes or very low status.

If your find homosexuality embarrassing you might not like to read 1 Sam 20:17 - homosexuality is in the Bible.

O COME ON!

Of COURSE Jesus wasn't gay, that would be Lawlessness [SIN], and He fulfilled the Law!

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Every single 'Thou shalt not' in the Bible, Jesus fulfilled!

Would do you accuse Him of sin just so you can live your own life?!!?

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Bynum/bible_and_homosexual.htm

 

[one11]

There no real evidence that it's talking about purely agape love though. The section in question uses the same words and phrases used to describe romantic hetrosexual relationships in the Bible but about Jonathan and David. I remember reading it before I was a Christian and before Id even realised my own sexuality and thinking "theyre clearly very, very gay.." . I feel theres several parts of the story that indicate they had a homosexual relationship.

However thats just my opinion unless one of us were actually there, there is no way of knowing if the relationship between them was homosexual in nature or not.

A kiss is how men of that culture greeted each other. Some cultures still do today.

Men kissing men does not mean they're gay. It was normal in that culture and still is in some part of the world today.

The real homophobia lies in the Western today in that one cannot kiss a person of the same sex or else they are gay.

I've seen this in our current society, but I will continue to kiss my female friends on the cheek and my Mom on the lips.. it does not make us gay nor incestuous.

 

[Zeena]

A kiss is how men of that culture greeted each other. Some cultures still do today.

Men kissing men does not mean they're gay. It was normal in that culture and still is in some part of the world today.

The real homophobia lies in the Western today in that one cannot kiss a person of the same sex or else they are gay.

I've seen this in our current society, but I will continue to kiss my female friends on the cheek and my Mom on the lips.. it does not make us gay nor incestuous.

Romans 16:16
Salute one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ salute you.

 

[one11]

Do you find such a thought embarrassing? Jesus may well have been a homosexual for all we know. He trapped all over the countryside with a group of men. He did not marry, did not have a family of his own and apart from his mother the women in his life were either prostitutes or very low status.

If your find homosexuality embarrassing you might not like to read 1 Sam 20:17 - homosexuality is in the Bible.

1 Sam 20:17 is reiterating the "love they neighbor as thyself" which shows agape love and nothing more. The whole story of Jonathan and David shows agape love is greater than eros love.

And for you to accuse Jesus of this is... is... well, I'll let you talk to God about that one. yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[one11]

Romans 16:16
Salute one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ salute you.

Same back to you sister Zeena



I think most people in Western society are so afraid of a kiss between the same sex they have become almost unaffectionate towards one another, and that is what homophobia is.

It's like air hug, air kiss. lol

 

[Zeena]

Same back to you sister Zeena

I think most people in Western society are so afraid of a kiss between the same sex they have become almost unaffectionate towards one another, and that is what homophobia is.

And that is so sad!

It's like air hug, air kiss. lol

*CATCHES THE LOVE*

John 3:8 NIV
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

 

[Zeena]

If your find homosexuality embarrassing you might not like to read 1 Sam 20:17 - homosexuality is in the Bible.

1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

1 Samuel 20:17
And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul.

This is not a physical love as you supposed.

Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

1 Cor:7:10-11
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

 

[Dogbean]

What's your point? Where does it say Jonathan and David were gay lovers?

 

[wayseer]

O COME ON!

Of COURSE Jesus wasn't gay, that would be Lawlessness [SIN], and He fulfilled the Law!

Did he? I wonder what Jesus thought - I wonder what he felt? Have you ever wondered?

You were embarrassed previously now you are mad. How are you feeling - that the Bible has to resonate with your personal beliefs?

 

[wayseer]

What's your point? Where does it say Jonathan and David were gay lovers?

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality - that's my point.

 

[Dogbean]

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality - that's my point.

Well IMHO you have a strange way of saying it.

Those who think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality are deceived, reject the things of God, and deny the Holy Scriptures, where God clearly condemns homosexuality.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Well, HoloHope isn't answering..

And so that justifies singling me out?

 

[Texas Lynn]

I'm not a huge fan of the pentecostal/american-evangelical style of "born-again" I was however saved, excepted Jesus in my heart and do my best to maintain a relationship with him.

I just dont happen to view my sexuality as an obstacle to having a relationship with him.

It's not.

 

[wayseer]

Well IMHO you have a strange way of saying it.

Those who think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality are deceived, reject the things of God, and deny the Holy Scriptures, where God clearly condemns homosexuality.

Then I guess, by your definition, I'm deceived. Long may it be so if I have to adopt a homophobic agenda to satisfy some aspects of the Church of a bit of condemnation.

God does not condemn homosexuality or homosexuality. But the Bible clearly condemns those who claim the high moral ground and direct who is to be condemned - a point that is not always so well understood.

 

[one11]

Then I guess, by your definition, I'm deceived. Long may it be so if I have to adopt a homophobic agenda to satisfy some aspects of the Church of a bit of condemnation.

God does not condemn homosexuality or homosexuality. But the Bible clearly condemns those who claim the high moral ground and direct who is to be condemned - a point that is not always so well understood.

Yeah, that's what the hippies of the Love Generation thought too, and look what mess that created for couples, for marriages, for children. Throw any established order out, live as you want because Jesus loves me no matter what. Comparing the Love Generation (my generation) to my mother and father's generation, they were much more well balanced and happy people with marriages that lasted 50 or more years. That's not happenin' in our modern world.

From what I've experienced, if people don't stand for something and know why they stand for it, they are going to fall for anything the world wants. The world wants sin period, and they want it badly. I know, I've experienced it.

I wish I had been raised on the Bible. I was in some aspects. But both my parents never read the Bible. I was brought up Catholic, until the age of 10, never got confirmed, and then went to Protestant churches again when I was in my 20's and read scripture out of context for years, but never read the Bible until I was in my 40's!

If I had read the Bible young, I know in my heart of hearts and stuck to the word, I know I would have had a happier life. Life without sin is happier than life with sin but you have to have a strong backbone or else the world will crush you and sometimes even drag you to go down that wide road that leads to sin.

 

[Dogbean]

Then I guess, by your definition, I'm deceived. Long may it be so if I have to adopt a homophobic agenda to satisfy some aspects of the Church of a bit of condemnation.

God does not condemn homosexuality or homosexuality. But the Bible clearly condemns those who claim the high moral ground and direct who is to be condemned - a point that is not always so well understood.

I don't adopt a homophobic agenda. I see this as a two way road.....these people don't want our Christian beliefs forced on them, but they have used the power of government to have their gay ideals forced on us. I can teach my kids at home that being gay is a sin, but still to love these people and reach out to them and treat them with respect, and not to engage in gaybashing. But the schools want to teach EVERYONE that being gay is ok, which is in direct conflict with God's Word. That's not homophobia. Yes, some extremist Christians will protest and be more militant about it, and bash them, but that is not the right thing to do.

And the Bible does condemn homosexuality, in several places. Anyone who does not see and understand this plain language in the Bible is blind to the things of God and their heart is darkened by sin and approval of those who sin.

 

[Zeena]

Did he?

He fulfilled the Law of God!

Or in your prejudice against Scripture do you now say the Word of Jesus is not inspired as well?

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

1 Corinthians 7:35
And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

2 Corinthians 11:2-4
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Timothy 2:4
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

I wonder what Jesus thought - I wonder what he felt?

What does this have to do with Him fulfilling the Law?!?

Have you ever wondered?

Are you saying you have used your God-given imagination to envision Jesus performing sexual acts with men after falling into temptation by lust?!?

John 8:45-55
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

You were embarrassed previously now you are mad. How are you feeling - that the Bible has to resonate with your personal beliefs?

2 Corinthians 11:7
Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?

I find it embarrassing [even fainedly, for your sakes] to accuse Jesus of sin!

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Are you not either implying or saying Jesus not only had lustful thoughts for men, but that He commited the ACT of homosexuality as well?

Titus 1:15-16
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

He knew no sin!!!

Colossians 1:28-29
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

 

[Zeena]

And so that justifies singling me out?

SpiritDriven did not accuse me of sin in asking to give a testimony. And I did nothing of the sort, but I myself gave my own testimony before even asking you.

SpiritDriven gave a WONDERFUL answer!

What is yours?

Mine is YES, AMEN!

Father, I am NOTHING in this life without you!
I can't be like you Lord, for I am not You!!!

Come, and be my Life Jesus!!!
I NEED You!!!

AMEN.

Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification.