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Homosexuality - Here I stand.

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OllieFranz

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I don't adopt a homophobic agenda. I see this as a two way road.....these people don't want our Christian beliefs forced on them, but they have used the power of government to have their gay ideals forced on us. I can teach my kids at home that being gay is a sin, but still to love these people and reach out to them and treat them with respect, and not to engage in gaybashing. But the schools want to teach EVERYONE that being gay is ok, which is in direct conflict with God's Word. That's not homophobia. Yes, some extremist Christians will protest and be more militant about it, and bash them, but that is not the right thing to do.

The phrase I highlighted in blue is an opinion which I believe to be an over-reaction and in error. And what the schools try to teach them is to love these people and reach out to them and treat them with respect, and not to engage in gaybashing. The only difference is that they also teach that many people, gay and straight, Christian and non-Christiian do not believe that it is a sin simply to be gay. Teaching respect and tolerance is not the same as recruiting.

And the Bible does condemn homosexuality, in several places. Anyone who does not see and understand this plain language in the Bible is blind to the things of God and their heart is darkened by sin and approval of those who sin.

On this we will have to agree to disagree. A dispassionate examination of the passages does not, in my experience, lead to the conclusion that the orientation, or expressing the orientation in marriage are at all sinful. There are sinful actions that are condemned, but not these.
 
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Zeena

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And what the schools try to teach them is to love these people and reach out to them and treat them with respect, and not to engage in gaybashing.
I myself agree with this.


The only difference is that they also teach that many people, gay and straight, Christian and non-Christiian do not believe that it is a sin simply to be gay.
And it with this I find fault. For men are NOT born sinners! They are not born homosexual, but it is the ACT of chosing for themselves who they will be that is sin.


Teaching respect and tolerance is not the same as recruiting.
Teaching that men are born sinners is error.

You can forget about tolerance when you have a generation indoctrinated into believing they are born crooked! :swoon:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm
 
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wayseer

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I don't adopt a homophobic agenda. I see this as a two way road.....these people don't want our Christian beliefs forced on them, but they have used the power of government to have their gay ideals forced on us. I can teach my kids at home that being gay is a sin, but still to love these people and reach out to them and treat them with respect, and not to engage in gaybashing. But the schools want to teach EVERYONE that being gay is ok, which is in direct conflict with God's Word. That's not homophobia. Yes, some extremist Christians will protest and be more militant about it, and bash them, but that is not the right thing to do.

Dogbean - the situation is one of our own making.

I wonder how I would have acted if I had been born in southern USA during the years of slavery. Would I have become a voice urging the removal of the practice? Or, would I have quietly go along with the institution of slavery for the sake of peace in my home? I don't care to answer either question - I am only too well aware of my own feebleness. Yet, slavery was clearly a blight on all humanity - an evil that condemned all involved in the face of a loving and merciful God.

And the Bible does condemn homosexuality, in several places. Anyone who does not see and understand this plain language in the Bible is blind to the things of God and their heart is darkened by sin and approval of those who sin.

I guess that is where we differ - I am not convinced that Bible actually says as much. I know it makes references to sexuality in a number of ways but such references, in my view, have to read in connection with the social environment of those times. I have made reference elsewhere to the accepted practice of slavery in those years. So, if you are claiming that homosexuality is evil because the Bible says so then you have to accept that slavery is OK because the Bible says so.
 
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one11

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Dogbean - the situation is one of our own making.

I wonder how I would have acted if I had been born in southern USA during the years of slavery. Would I have become a voice urging the removal of the practice? Or, would I have quietly go along with the institution of slavery for the sake of peace in my home? I don't care to answer either question - I am only too well aware of my own feebleness. Yet, slavery was clearly a blight on all humanity - an evil that condemned all involved in the face of a loving and merciful God.



I guess that is where we differ - I am not convinced that Bible actually says as much. I know it makes references to sexuality in a number of ways but such references, in my view, have to read in connection with the social environment of those times. I have made reference elsewhere to the accepted practice of slavery in those years. So, if you are claiming that homosexuality is evil because the Bible says so then you have to accept that slavery is OK because the Bible says so.

I don't see the connection to slavery. We are all still slaves to our bosses if we want a job. There are also modern-day crop harvesters who live more like gypsies in today's modern world hoping and waiting for the next crop harvest.

There were and are always will be land owners and crop harvesters. Also, a slave in the Bible was to be treated like one of the family. That's were the word fell short on that issue for some but not all (in the time of Lincoln and before.)

People need to eat, they need clean crops and they need clean water to live, as well as to have some animals. All civilization still needs this. Imho, the Amish have the best set up for appropriate crop creation and harvesting and the Amish have proved to live long and healthy lives.

In your country, Australia, there are land owners and crop harvesters too; just set up differently. Every country has their own harvesting set ups, some no better or worse than the times of slaves.
 
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Zeena

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I guess that is where we differ - I am not convinced that Bible actually says as much. I know it makes references to sexuality in a number of ways but such references, in my view, have to read in connection with the social environment of those times. I have made reference elsewhere to the accepted practice of slavery in those years. So, if you are claiming that homosexuality is evil because the Bible says so then you have to accept that slavery is OK because the Bible says so.
Jesus remains the same, no matter the time period.
He filfilled the Law of God, and does so in and through us as we yeild to Him for His Holy Life.

As for slavery in the world today;
http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2008/

As for Biblical slavery;
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html


They are two VERY different circumstances.
 
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Texas Lynn

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Zeena

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And you asked me because......?
Because I wanted to point out that asking such a question is in no way inflamatory. Which is why I posted Scripture which says;be ready in season and out to give an account of the hope in you.

Do you take me asking this as inflamatory? :confused:
 
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Dogbean

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The phrase I highlighted in blue is an opinion which I believe to be an over-reaction and in error. And what the schools try to teach them is to love these people and reach out to them and treat them with respect, and not to engage in gaybashing. The only difference is that they also teach that many people, gay and straight, Christian and non-Christiian do not believe that it is a sin simply to be gay. Teaching respect and tolerance is not the same as recruiting.
On this we will have to agree to disagree. A dispassionate examination of the passages does not, in my experience, lead to the conclusion that the orientation, or expressing the orientation in marriage are at all sinful. There are sinful actions that are condemned, but not these.
Well, we can disagree, but I will teach my children the TRUTH from GOD. I will be content knowing that my children and I are not in error on this issue. You can believe whatever you want, but it does not change the TRUTH of GOD's WORD, which plainly condemns the practice of homosexuality.
 
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Zeena

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I don't see the connection to slavery. We are all still slaves to our bosses if we want a job.
True dat! ^_^

At least until I get laid off this april.. :(

Genesis 3:17-19
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
 
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Zeena

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Either way an evil system is being instituted.
I believe all people, regardless of race or nationality, creed or denomination, are human beings, and I am also am a human being. To label sin as sin stated in Scripture is in no way attacking the [a] person, it is pointing out sin, plain and simple.

To take a rebuke of sin as an attack on the person is error.
For we are called as Christians to rebuke those walking after their flesh, for thier sin.
And should they repent, are welcome back with open arms!
Therefore, it is not the person who is being demeaned, but the act of sinning! For if it was 'they', 'they' would not be welcomed back.

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

If we take the above verse of Scripture as an attack on our person, then we would never stop sinning, for we would construde our Heavenly Father as a tyranical leader, who sets down a law that is contrary to our nature. But God did not create us contrary to Himself! He breathed into man the breath of life, and man became a living soul! We are made in the image of God from birth, and when we chose to sin, that image became marred and we became slaves to sin! But God made a way out through Christ, who, by faith on His Name, we can be cleansed of sin! We must believe He has died for our sins, and rose for our justification in order to be born again. After being born again we have a choice, moment by moment to FORGO OURSELVES, take up our cross and follow Him! 'Ourselves' died with Christ on the cross, and to hold on to ones old self is necromancy, which is a sin stated plainly in Scripture.

We can come before God with a clear conscious only so long as we hold to the faith of Christ as our Life. And the Bible is made so that we may know what He is like. What He is like is plainly stated in it's pages, through the Law, the Prophets [veiled] and the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament [unveiled].

Sin is BAD for us!
It not only separates us from our God, but it actualy hurts us!!!

John 5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

My steadfast refusal to sin doesn't mean I'm any better than the person who so choses to sin, for I too chose wrongly and SIN at times. I do not think any less of the person for committing the sin. I believe the person is in need of repentance which is only affected by the Love of God in Christ Jesus!

Jesus speaks thus;

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Which Life, we, as regenerate or NOT, are able to receive by Grace through faith, because He died for mankind. That Life, the Eternal Life of God does not change according to neither the whim nor the desire of the individaul being possessed of it [Him]. It [He] is the Eternal, unchanging Life of God! Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, which also was pointed out plainly from Scripture earlier.

As we subject ourselves, by faith, to Christ as our Life, we are infilled in the soul by the Holy Spirit, and Christ then Lives through us.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

He does not sin! He is not a sinner! He does no sin! He does not allow sinful thoughts to permeate His mind, even though they come at Him! He does not give in to temptation, but rather, relies on His Father to overcome in and through Him.

John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

He is a human being, not a human doing!

As were we, but we sinned, and now we are in need of being infilled by the Life of Christ on a moment by moment basis. And as He fills us with His Holy Spirit through yeilding to Him unto Life, He Lives through us to the Glory of God the Father! And He shall heal us, conforming us back into the image of God that we marred by sinning, progressively.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Question please;
Are you of the 'Wesleyan Methodist' denomination?

http://users.tpg.com.au/sarina21/challenge/1john5.html
 
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wayseer

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We are all still slaves to our bosses if we want a job.

YOu are not a slave to your job. You might be a slave to your desires and wants - and it might therefore appear you are a 'slave' to your job - but that is your choice. You can leave your job basically anytime you wish - I have left several jobs. A slave had no such option.
 
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wayseer

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:sayan:Blasphemy! Oh fool, how are you going to escape hell? You claim that you are a follower of Christ but you act as if you never knew Him. You ignore the Holy Scriptures and believe what Satan has taught you. REPENT!!! And ask God to save you. It's your only escape from damnation.

Steady there. You mean well but you are not 'listening'.

One of things I have learnt in my walk with God is that it's OK to question. I admit I'm pretty thick and it takes a bit of work to get the message thought at times - but I'm learning. But while I have learned that God does not mind being asked the BIG questions, the Church shuns such advances, lock their doors and throw all sorts of rubbish at me like, 'you are damned to hell'. I have found, over the years, that such responses confirm that I am actually on the right track.

So, thank you for your caution. Noted, but will not necessarily be acted upon.
 
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Zeena

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YOu are not a slave to your job. You might be a slave to your desires and wants - and it might therefore appear you are a 'slave' to your job - but that is your choice. You can leave your job basically anytime you wish - I have left several jobs. A slave had no such option.


They're not wants and desires so much as they are NEEDS, which Jesus meets in and through me.

2 Thessalonians 3:10-15
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.


Since when did having a roof over my head, food in my fridge and clothes on my back become a choice?


.
 
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OllieFranz

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Jesus remains the same, no matter the time period.
He filfilled the Law of God, and does so in and through us as we yeild to Him for His Holy Life.

As for slavery in the world today;
http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2008/

As for Biblical slavery;
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html


They are two VERY different circumstances.

How odd. You claim that slavery as practiced in Biblical times is totally different from the chattel slavery of recent centuries. Even when some of the permitted rules are exactly why chattel slavery is so evil.

And yet you can't see any difference between rape as political torture, or idolatrous temple rituals forbidden in the Bible, and committed love in a monogamous marriage.
 
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Zeena

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How odd. You claim that slavery as practiced in Biblical times is totally different from the chattel slavery of recent centuries. Even when some of the permitted rules are exactly why chattel slavery is so evil.

And yet you can't see any difference between rape as political torture, or idolatrous temple rituals forbidden in the Bible, and committed love in a monogamous marriage.
Did you not read the links love? :confused:

If you're interested, please make another thread on the subject, and I'll join you there if you link it here ;)
 
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david_x

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YOu are not a slave to your job. You might be a slave to your desires and wants - and it might therefore appear you are a 'slave' to your job - but that is your choice. You can leave your job basically anytime you wish - I have left several jobs. A slave had no such option.

Not everyone is so free as to leave their job at any moment. Not everyone has marketable skills.

While we are on the subject we are slaves to Christ because of what we know.
 
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Zeena

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Not everyone is so free as to leave their job at any moment. Not everyone has marketable skills.
Thus the capitalist can earn money (profit) from the manual labor of his employees without actually doing any manual labor, or in excess of his own work. Marxists argue that new wealth is created through manual labor; therefore, if someone gains wealth that he did not do manual labor for, then someone else does not receive the full wealth created by his manual labor. In other words, that "someone else" is exploited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat
 
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david_x

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Working in a job is not being a slave. You are trying to make something out of nothing.

In the perfect world you would be correct. However there are people out there who, upon losing their job, would starve along with their children.
 
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