Homosexuality - Here I stand.

[Zeena]

False analogy; gender and sexual orientation are two separate and distinct constructs.

No, they are not.

Genesis 1:27
And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Eve came from Adam, bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh.
Under ONE umberella called mankind.

 

[one11]

Traditionally Baptists have eschewed creeds. Many believe all the items in the Nicene creed, but demanding adherence to the political correctness of it is not traditionally a Baptist position. That may have changed in some instances. In 1960, when John Kennedy was elected President, Baptists in general opposed him due to their concern about his Catholicism and awareness that in Europe and Latin America, Catholics often advocated an entanglement between church and state. While traditionally Baptists opposed such entanglements, one hardly ever hears anything at all about it anymore except in areas of Catholic dominance from a Baptist minority as we find in far South Texas. Baptist leaders such as Richard Land today advocate much more church-state entanglement than the Catholics of Kennedy's day did in their wildest dreams.

What does that have to do with what I said "that non-denominational are loosely Baptist and that we stand on the word of God and that the word of God is our bread, our nourishment?" And Clinton was Baptist, I believe!

 

[Zeena]

We are to talk to each other with regard and dignity when we have a dispute or a disagreement within the church and "prove" and "test" all things before each other. I think there is a scripture for that?

A few that come to mind

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Galations 6:1-8
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For every man shall bear his own burden. 6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

2 Corinthians 13:5-9
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. 8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. 9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

But there's plenty more where that came from!

www.BibleGateWay.com

Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

 

[Zeena]

That carnal mind of the old man does not equate to sexual desire -- it consists in holding worldly attitudes contrary to God's commandments -- like the desire to sit in judgment over others, to lie about them, to condemn them, to excuse oneself, to refuse to give compassion and understanding. And many of the self-styled "REAL Christians" of this board are among the greatest of offenders.

Saint Paul judged in Righteousness, so did Peter and Jude and John, ALL of the epistles have something to say to those who chose idols over God.
Jesus Himself has PLENTY to say in Revelations!

1 Corinthians 6:9-20
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Peter 3:12-13
12For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 13And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

2 Peter 2:12-22
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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Psalm 119:126
It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

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Eph 3:14-19: For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.

 

[HaloHope]

Yeah, I know. Some people are just really nasty. I'm a survivor of sexual abuse so there is real cruelty in the world.

Im sorry to hear that.

As far as a schism in the Anglican church, well that does and doesn't concern me. It doesn't concern me because I am a non-denominational, so I can take no sides nor do I care to have a say in the Anglican churches.

Im fairly non demoniminational myself but I do attend an Anglican church on occasion. I dont mind a huge amount if they split, but it does seem at least worth trying to avert it.

However, you need to understand that non-denominationals are loosely Baptist and that we do stand on the word of God and we believe that the word is our bread that feeds us and helps us grow, and we believe in The Nicene Creed.

Im not sure this can be applied to every non-denom out there, but it does let me see where you stand a bit more personally.

So, this is sad if it happens, but you also need to realize that you cannot vote in the USA and you need to let go a little bit and let another country be it's country. America is not the U.K. nor the other way around.

That is true and we are very different countries particularly when in comes to how secular the UK is (something I love as I believe religion has no place in dictating the lives of others and should be an entirely personal thing). However, when I see what I consider injustice going on in the world (and gay people do have it far worse in other countries than in the US of course) I do my best to at the very least speak out against it and occasionally when the oppourtunity presents itself camapign against it too.

 

[Zeena]

If that is so many who think arrival there is their entitlement will enter with a diminished capacity.

1 Corinthians 3:10-20
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Philippians 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

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2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

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Lamentations 5:16
The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned!

 

[one11]

Im sorry to hear that.



Im fairly non demoniminational myself but I do attend an Anglican church on occasion. I dont mind a huge amount if they split, but it does seem at least worth trying to avert it.



Im not sure this can be applied to every non-denom out there, but it does let me see where you stand a bit more personally.



That is true and we are very different countries particularly when in comes to how secular the UK is (something I love as I believe religion has no place in dictating the lives of others and should be an entirely personal thing). However, when I see what I consider injustice going on in the world (and gay people do have it far worse in other countries than in the US of course) I do my best to at the very least speak out against it and occasionally when the oppourtunity presents itself camapign against it too.

Thanks Halo. Over coming sexual abuse takes long years, but it can get better.

And yes non-denoms can be different but we stand on the word of God rather than letting a hierarchy dictate our worship and beliefs, thus we are separate from any church with a hierarchy. We believe God's word is sufficient for us to learn how to live a good life and bear good fruit. However, we are considered "loosely Baptist" because we do not only allow Baptists into our church, any one from any denomination is welcome to worship with us. So, we are a bit "who so ever may come" too.

As far as the U.K., I have a question.. is it same sex unions which are legal or same sex marriage?

 

[HaloHope]

As far as the U.K., I have a question.. is it same sex unions which are legal or same sex marriage?

Just "civil partnerships" which grant exactly the same rights as a "marriage" at present.

 

[one11]

When did Jesus chose to be male?

Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, chose to be male because he had to be born of woman.

God's name is not Sophia!


*
Oh, this post is not directed at you sister Zeena. I'm just using this to state why Jesus was male and rebuke those calling God, Sophia. That's coconuts. However, I am not saying you do that beautiful sister Zeena at all!

 

[one11]

Just "civil partnerships" which grant exactly the same rights as a "marriage" at present.

Civil partnerships? Hmmm, I don't know exactly what those are? We have domestic partnerships in California which are for both heterosexual and homosexual couples.

The only thing left out of a domestic partnership (which is a contract for the couple) is leaving each other Social Security, I think. Otherwise, in a domestic partnership the couple is afford all the rights as a married couple.

Also, you need to understand that each state of the United States can set it's own marriage laws within reason of course, meaning a state does not have a right to declare an incestuous couple can get married. Mostly each state decides on age limit as the main, and other things such as common law marriage, domestic parternships, etc.

Right now California has voted in favor of California's Constitution stating that a marriage is to be DEFINED as between one man and one woman. That was Proposition 8. However, from what I have read, a state needs a two thirds majority to change a law of it's state constitution. Proposition 8 did not win by that two thirds majority. So this issue is in for a very bumpy ride in California.

However, while California remains "unsettled" as to this issue, there were other states in U.S. passing that NO same sex unions will be allowed in their state and other states passing that no same sex union will be recognized in their state, thus possibly keeping some homosexuals from visiting their loved ones in the hospital which is definitely over the top, imo, if not downright inhumane as there are children involved here.

We not only have separation from church and state, but we have a bit of separation from state to state especially in regards to marriage laws. So, you need to view each state in the United States as a bit different.

Sounds like a mess, huh?

 

[BigBadWlf]

When did Jesus chose to be male?

And just like sexual orientation…no one chooses to be born male or female

 

[BigBadWlf]

romans 1.26 ....unnatural affection....

..........your choice.....your life.....your future....your peace of mind......
just don't ask society to validate your choice at others expense....

historically Roamns has been used to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, religious reformers, and the mentally ill. all with the claim that this particualr group was what wsmeant by "unnatural afflicitons" or more corectly "vile afflictions" Currently the popular target of this discrimination are homosexuals

In the original Greek, the phrase for “vile affliction” used in Romans translates as ecstatic or ecstasy, the original meaning was not in reference to passion or the street drug but rather referred to ecstatic trance states described by anthropologists (Ref: Mircea Eliade). These ecstatic trances were part of pretty much every religion, such states were generally achieved by religious leaders but lay people could engage in them as well, the process was to connect to the spirit world for healing and blessing. The Modern Christian version would be “speaking in tongues” and the meditative state achieved in ritualistic prayer. Originally the condemnation was against any religion but the one Paul was founding, but like so many other non-Christian traditions, ecstasy found their way into Christianity.

As for the reference to “natural.” The society Paul is writing to, both Roman and Greek, considered homosexuality be quite natural. What would have been considered unnatural for Paul’s audience would have been to force oneself to go against one’s own nature, to pretend to be something one is not. Such relationships are referred to as being unnatural by many writers of the era.

Paul specifically used the Greek word paraphysi here, and contrary to popular belief paraphysi does not mean "to go against the law(s) of nature", as those promoting discrimination against homosexuals often claim, but rather it means to engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic or against the nature of that person or more simply an individual denying his/her true nature. An example of the word paraphysin is used in Romans 11:24, where God acts in an uncharacteristic (paraphysin) way to accept the Gentiles. To claim that paraphysi means unnatural would indicate that God was acting in an unnatural way. Thus the passages correctly reads that it would be unnatural for heterosexuals to live as homosexuals, and for homosexuals to live as heterosexuals. And what Paul is condemning is the unnaturalness of going against one’s nature. In the verse you cite God punishes individuals engaging in ecstatic trance work by forcing them to be something they are not.

The sin here (aside form ecstasy trance work) is pretending to be something you are not.

Romans 1:26-27 is not a condemnation of homosexuality but a condemnation of trying to change or lying about ones sexual orientation. Thus it is a condemnation of ex-gay ministries.

 

[wayseer]

Interesting views - and not without merit.

 

[one11]

historically Roamns has been used to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, religious reformers, and the mentally ill. all with the claim that this particualr group was what wsmeant by "unnatural afflicitons" or more corectly "vile afflictions" Currently the popular target of this discrimination are homosexuals

In the original Greek, the phrase for “vile affliction” used in Romans translates as ecstatic or ecstasy, the original meaning was not in reference to passion or the street drug but rather referred to ecstatic trance states described by anthropologists (Ref: Mircea Eliade). These ecstatic trances were part of pretty much every religion, such states were generally achieved by religious leaders but lay people could engage in them as well, the process was to connect to the spirit world for healing and blessing. The Modern Christian version would be “speaking in tongues” and the meditative state achieved in ritualistic prayer. Originally the condemnation was against any religion but the one Paul was founding, but like so many other non-Christian traditions, ecstasy found their way into Christianity.

As for the reference to “natural.” The society Paul is writing to, both Roman and Greek, considered homosexuality be quite natural. What would have been considered unnatural for Paul’s audience would have been to force oneself to go against one’s own nature, to pretend to be something one is not. Such relationships are referred to as being unnatural by many writers of the era.

Paul specifically used the Greek word paraphysi here, and contrary to popular belief paraphysi does not mean "to go against the law(s) of nature", as those promoting discrimination against homosexuals often claim, but rather it means to engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic or against the nature of that person or more simply an individual denying his/her true nature. An example of the word paraphysin is used in Romans 11:24, where God acts in an uncharacteristic (paraphysin) way to accept the Gentiles. To claim that paraphysi means unnatural would indicate that God was acting in an unnatural way. Thus the passages correctly reads that it would be unnatural for heterosexuals to live as homosexuals, and for homosexuals to live as heterosexuals. And what Paul is condemning is the unnaturalness of going against one’s nature. In the verse you cite God punishes individuals engaging in ecstatic trance work by forcing them to be something they are not.

The sin here (aside form ecstasy trance work) is pretending to be something you are not.

Romans 1:26-27 is not a condemnation of homosexuality but a condemnation of trying to change or lying about ones sexual orientation. Thus it is a condemnation of ex-gay ministries.

The only merit I can give this argument is that in some ancient pagan culture the men had long hair and made themselves look like women for ritual temple prostitution sex or to be a sex slave (in bondage) to the Greek and Roman pagan "lords".

But we're supposed to see that Greeks and Roman paganism bore good fruit?

Do not forget that Satan has dominion over this world until the anti-Christ is revealed and Jesus comes back to defeat him. Jesus left us the gift of the Holy Spirit and has sent his beloved (us) Angels to watch over us until he returns so that we may defeat what the devil wants, which is to kill us and destroy us.

We are under Grace by the gift of the Holy Spirit, but we (the church) are still under a "test".

I still believe God called homosexuals to be celibate, and I see no other scripture from Jesus to believe that marriage is anything but a God-given covenant between a man and a woman.

I've also seen children raised by two men in my family and they don't have a clue how to teach a daughter (a woman) things that they as men cannot understand.

And there are studies were two woman or one woman (a single mother) have emasculated men. So the missing father figure here is not discussed in the LGBT community nor are the studies of men being emasculated emotionally without a good male role model.

Children have the best chance of a happy and mature mind when they have both role models of a man and a woman for their upbringing.

 

[Zeena]

When did Jesus chose to be male?

And just like sexual orientation…no one chooses to be born male or female

Jesus never chose to BE male, He IS male, so He came as a male.

1 Timothy 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

 

[david_x]

Jesus never chose to BE male, He IS male, so He came as a male.

1 Timothy 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

To be completely accurate, male is Him. Haha.

 

[Zeena]

And just like sexual orientation…no one chooses to be born male or female

Jesus never chose to BE male, He IS male, so He came as a male.

1 Timothy 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

To be completely accurate, male is Him. Haha.

AMEN! It's as if God was spewing a piece of Himself out of His mouth when He breathed Life into man!

This is very indicative to the fact that, as people are born either male OR female, so is thier identity to be found.

Jesus NEVER pretended to be something He wasn't, and "male is Him". hehe

For someone to shove what God created to the side, as human beings, and say they'll be, or are, something other than who, or what, they is, and are, and will be, is to say that God was wrong.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Psalm 139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[No Swansong]

Wikipedia is not reliable. Do you own research with reliable scholars.



Anyone who has a different opinion is wrong.



Read the Bible - you might actually learn something. There is no conclusive evidence within the Bible that states homosexuality is a sin.

You mean other than the Levitical law right?

 

[Zeena]

historically Romans has been used to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, religious reformers, and the mentally ill. all with the claim that this particualr group was what wsmeant by "unnatural afflicitons" or more corectly "vile afflictions" Currently the popular target of this discrimination are homosexuals

1 Corinthians 5:9-12
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[HaloHope]

Children have the best chance of a happy and mature mind when they have both role models of a man and a woman for their upbringing.

While I guess this is slightly going off topic, I disagree. I personally feel gender roles and the like (a girl should be taught to cook, a guy must be taught to provide..etc) are pretty pointless things and believe either gender can teach a child many things wrongfully percieved as being exclusive to one gender.

I think a single parent, two parents of the same gender etc.. can raise a child just as well as opposite sex couple.

I wasnt really raised by either of my parents, both taking an extended absense from my life and id have been happy to be raised by anyone who could have given me love, gender irrelevant.