Homosexuality from a christian point of veiw.

[outlaw]

It's a four part process that involves me and God:

1) I tell you the truth that homosexual acts are outside of God's will for His creation.

Well technically it is an “abomination” Leviticus 20:13 but then eating shrimp is also an abomination…Leviticus 11:10-12

2) The Holy Spirit moves on your heart to accept the truth.
3) Then you either accept it or reject it.

Ok…lets say the homosexual you are trying to convert accepts the truth that eating shrimp is just plain wrong…then what?

4) If you choose to accept, this is conversion to Christianity and you become a follower of Jesus, and strive to live your life within the instruction provided by our Father in His Word, which is quite clear on the matter of homosexual sex, inspite of what some want you, and me, to believe. With this conversion, is the promise of eternal life in the presence of God. [/qu] and what if the homosexual you are trying to convert is already a Christian?

The OP poll doesn't say anything about conversion to heterosexuality. It happens to some, and not to others. For some it happens immediately, for others later, and for some never.

Can you offer any evidence to support thee claim that sexual orientation changes?



There are some testimonies for “ex-gays” but there are also testimonies form people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and subjected to medical torture aboard UFO’s

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Well technically it is an “abomination” Leviticus 20:13 but then eating shrimp is also an abomination…Leviticus 11:10-12

Ok…lets say the homosexual you are trying to convert accepts the truth that eating shrimp is just plain wrong…then what?


and what if the homosexual you are trying to convert is already a Christian?

Can you offer any evidence to support thee claim that sexual orientation changes?


There are some testimonies for “ex-gays” but there are also testimonies form people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and subjected to medical torture aboard UFO’s

And what does any of this have to do with a Christian point of view?

Non-Christians should leave teaching Christian tenets to Christians for the obvious reasons found above.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[sethad]

And what does any of this have to do with a Christian point of view?

It has to do with the fact that Christians say homosexuality is an abomination using the verse in Leviticus but Leviticus also says that eating shrimp is an abomination but most christians dont have a problem with eating shrimp.

 

[Angel4Truth]

It has to do with the fact that Christians say homosexuality is an abomination using the verse in Leviticus but Leviticus also says that eating shrimp is an abomination but most christians dont have a problem with eating shrimp.

Have you read the previous posts ? Everyone has sinned and its been said in this thread , all guilty and that the law was given for the knowledge of sin . Unsure how this keeps being missed , but since people want to keep posting as if they didnt see all of that part , lets get technical about what you just posted since we are pretending the law is how we are judged today . (since that is what skeptics are doing , instead of debating contextually where we are all under a new covenant ).

Technical argument :

Leviticus 11:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, `These are the animals which you may eat among all the beasts that are on the earth

1) Are you a child of Israel? Are Christians children of Israel? No , they are children of God through Christ . So technically your argument is not valid to the christian , only to those in the hebrew theocracy does this type of cleanliness law (eating laws) apply . However the law against homosexual sex is a law unto death , not a cleanliness law . We die because of the sins unto death , not the cleanliness sins , they carried a temporal effect .

Acts 10:13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat.'' 15. And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common.'' <~~applies to all food except that which still contains blood , as its been reiterated under the new covenant that we arent to eat blood .

Acts 15:19 "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20. "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

2)They were to ensure cleanliness of body to those which whom the messiah would come from to ensure lineage . These laws also did not carry the penalty of death . The word translated abomination here means pollution. They did not have the cleanliness capabilities we have today either , and would basically poison their bodies with those things.

3)As you can see from above sexually immorality is reiterated in the new testament to apply to Christians and also the act of homosexual sex is specifically mentioned there as not ok with God too so we know its not been "cleansed" not to mention its always been a sin unto death .

Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29. being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30. backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32. who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[outlaw]

Have you read the previous posts ? Everyone has sinned and its been said in this thread , all guilty and that the law was given for the knowledge of sin . Unsure how this keeps being missed , but since people want to keep posting as if they didnt see all of that part , lets get technical about what you just posted since we are pretending the law is how we are judged today . (since that is what skeptics are doing , instead of debating contextually where we are all under a new covenant ).

Technical argument :

Leviticus 11:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, `These are the animals which you may eat among all the beasts that are on the earth

1) Are you a child of Israel? Are Christians children of Israel? No , they are children of God through Christ . So technically your argument is not valid to the christian , only to those in the hebrew theocracy does this type of cleanliness law (eating laws) apply . However the law against homosexual sex is a law unto death , not a cleanliness law . We die because of the sins unto death , not the cleanliness sins , they carried a temporal effect .

Acts 10:13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat.'' 15. And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common.'' <~~applies to all food except that which still contains blood , as its been reiterated under the new covenant that we arent to eat blood .

Acts 15:19 "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20. "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

2)They were to ensure cleanliness of body to those which whom the messiah would come from to ensure lineage . These laws also did not carry the penalty of death . The word translated abomination here means pollution. They did not have the cleanliness capabilities we have today either , and would basically poison their bodies with those things.

3)As you can see from above sexually immorality is reiterated in the new testament to apply to Christians and also the act of homosexual sex is specifically mentioned there as not ok with God too so we know its not been "cleansed" not to mention its always been a sin unto death .

Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29. being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30. backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32. who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-18

 

[ChristianCenturion]

It has to do with the fact that Christians say homosexuality is an abomination using the verse in Leviticus but Leviticus also says that eating shrimp is an abomination but most christians dont have a problem with eating shrimp.

And that alleged confusion has been answered time and time again. Feigning ignorance by people receiving the answer many times does not contradict it and making the claim only to declare that the answer doesn't meet the requirements of a non-believer doesn't make their "claim" true by default.

Answer: the distinction between moral law and ceremonial law is ignored in that alleged argument.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09071a.htm

Answer: Christian scripture has been repeatedly shown that clearifies that the Gentile doesn't have to concern themselves about food "defiling" them.

Matthew 15:10-20
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "


12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." 16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
~~~

Answer: The favored shrimp scripture does not require death as the punishment and the "compared topic" does.

Answer: The Hebrew word used isn't even the same between the alleged comparison.
sheqets
as opposed to
tow`ebah

Question answered... several times.

 

[seebs]

I'm a little unclear on this. Can you help me understand exactly how I tell whether a given law is moral or ceremonial? Is this something where some chapters of Leviticus are moral, and some ceremonial? Is it specific topics, such as "sex"? If someone shows me a verse from Leviticus, what is the reasoning or procedure I would use to determine whether it is moral or ceremonial?

 

[Angel4Truth]

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Very good ! A better rendering though is this : Matthew 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4. that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-18

Excellent again ! The pharisees didnt believe in Christ , so indeed only those who BELEIVE and are born again will see heaven .

Who inherits the kingdom of heaven?


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.''


Matthew 18
1. At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?''
2. And Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3. and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name


Romans 17: 17. and if children, then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.


Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, (thr pharisees and those of israel who rejected christ) 8. That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (those who believe)

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I'm a little unclear on this. Can you help me understand exactly how I tell whether a given law is moral or ceremonial? Is this something where some chapters of Leviticus are moral, and some ceremonial? Is it specific topics, such as "sex"? If someone shows me a verse from Leviticus, what is the reasoning or procedure I would use to determine whether it is moral or ceremonial?

Hi seebs ,

You can start with the link I submitted; but an easy beginning in understanding would be if it has a penalty of death, it's probably a moral issue and not simply ceremonial for the Jew.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I'm a little unclear on this. Can you help me understand exactly how I tell whether a given law is moral or ceremonial? Is this something where some chapters of Leviticus are moral, and some ceremonial? Is it specific topics, such as "sex"? If someone shows me a verse from Leviticus, what is the reasoning or procedure I would use to determine whether it is moral or ceremonial?

If you spend the time to read all the laws and their contexts , youll see the penalty for breaking each of them like in the food laws above , it clearly said to the children of israel (who were ensuring messiah lineage) .

You also have laws that only apply to the preists working in the temple and temple ceremonial laws , they wouldnt apply anywhere today since there is no physical temple today , because that also was fulfilled by Christ .

 

[Angel4Truth]

Bottom line , Christ reiterated what He wanted us to follow and the NT adresses the things christians need to be concerned about , like we dont eat anything strangled or with blood , and sexual immorality is still sexual immorality and homosexuality fornication , adultery , etc.. have all been reiterated in the new covenant

 

[outlaw]

I'm a little unclear on this. Can you help me understand exactly how I tell whether a given law is moral or ceremonial? Is this something where some chapters of Leviticus are moral, and some ceremonial? Is it specific topics, such as "sex"? If someone shows me a verse from Leviticus, what is the reasoning or procedure I would use to determine whether it is moral or ceremonial?

If it is inconvenient to follow like the law against wearing clothing made of mixed fabrics or the law against eating pork then you can claim it is part of “ceremonial” law and you can feel free to ignore it. If a law does not apply directly to you or helps you justify personal prejudice then it is “moral” law and you are free to use it to condemn others with it.

 

[Kgreg]

Well technically it is an “abomination” Leviticus 20:13 but then eating shrimp is also an abomination…Leviticus 11:10-12

And what's your point.


Ok…lets say the homosexual you are trying to convert accepts the truth that eating shrimp is just plain wrong…then what?

I never said anything about converting homosexuals into shrimp-eaters.

4) If you choose to accept, this is conversion to Christianity and you become a follower of Jesus, and strive to live your life within the instruction provided by our Father in His Word, which is quite clear on the matter of homosexual sex, inspite of what some want you, and me, to believe. With this conversion, is the promise of eternal life in the presence of God. [/qu] and what if the homosexual you are trying to convert is already a Christian?

Well, I guess someone else got to him before I did, right?


Can you offer any evidence to support thee claim that sexual orientation changes?

If a man whose sexually expression was totally in homosexual sex acts tells me that he no longer find the male body sexually arousing, then I have to believe him. So, I suggest you go to those men who claim to have had this sort of change occur in their lives and ask them for that evidence. I have not experienced this sort of change.



There are some testimonies for “ex-gays” but there are also testimonies form people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and subjected to medical torture aboard UFO’s Again, what's your point?

Any other profound, intellectual comments you would like to make?

 

[sethad]

Well technically it is an “abomination” Leviticus 20:13 but then eating shrimp is also an abomination…Leviticus 11:10-12

And what's your point.


Ok…lets say the homosexual you are trying to convert accepts the truth that eating shrimp is just plain wrong…then what?

I never said anything about converting homosexuals into shrimp-eaters.



Any other profound, intellectual comments you would like to make?

I guess you didnt get the point? in one part of leviticus it says homosexuality is an abomination. in another it says that shrimp are an abomination. however most christians dont have a problem with shrimp. which means that they pick and choose which things are "abominations" to suit themselves.

 

[Kgreg]

I guess you didnt get the point? in one part of leviticus it says homosexuality is an abomination. in another it says that shrimp are an abomination. however most christians dont have a problem with shrimp. which means that they pick and choose which things are "abominations" to suit themselves.

Two points:

1) Christians are not under the law. We are under grace, and therefore, released from the law.

2) I'll find the Scripture for you later and cite it to keep the mods happy, but God said in the Book of Acts that He had cleaned all things and that we are to eat them. Therefore, there are no dietary restrictions for Christains, but the NT is also very clear on the point of homosexuallity still being outside of God's will for His people.

 

[outlaw]

And what's your point.

Shrimp eating is just as wrong and immoral and as a good Christian you should be trying to convert people who dine at Red Lobster.

I never said anything about converting homosexuals into shrimp-eaters.

and why not? Eating shrimp is an abomination just as homosexuality? Why are you concerned about one sin and not another?

If a man whose sexually expression was totally in homosexual sex acts tells me that he no longer find the male body sexually arousing, then I have to believe him. So, I suggest you go to those men who claim to have had this sort of change occur in their lives and ask them for that evidence. I have not experienced this sort of change.

Again, what's your point?

the point is that since there are testimonies from people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and subjected to medical torture aboard UFO’s. if one accepts the testimony form “ex-gays” as true/proof then the testimonies from UFO abductees must also be accepted as true/proof.

 

[outlaw]

Two points:

1) Christians are not under the law. We are under grace, and therefore, released from the law.

2) I'll find the Scripture for you later and cite it to keep the mods happy, but God said in the Book of Acts that He had cleaned all things and that we are to eat them. Therefore, there are no dietary restrictions for Christains, but the NT is also very clear on the point of homosexuallity still being outside of God's will for His people.

tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:18-19



Christians are still under the law

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I guess you didnt get the point? in one part of leviticus it says homosexuality is an abomination. in another it says that shrimp are an abomination. however most christians dont have a problem with shrimp. which means that they pick and choose which things are "abominations" to suit themselves.

The attempt to use one's own real or feigned ignorance to prove an assertion? That would be called Argument of Ignorance or simple denial.
I'm disappointed that my efforts to answer the question were in vain and the real motive behind the asking was merely to misrepresent someone else's religion by making hostile assertions without so much as substance behind it.

Now, to get BACK to the OP: ... Christian point of view.

 

[sethad]

The attempt to use one's own real or feigned ignorance to prove an assertion? That would be called Argument of Ignorance or simple denial.
I'm disappointed that my efforts to answer the question were in vain and the real motive behind the asking was merely to misrepresent someone else's religion by making hostile assertions without so much as substance behind it.

Now, to get BACK to the OP: ... Christian point of view.

the guy didnt get what the other guy was saying. I was clarifying what he meant since he didnt seem to get it.

I fail to see how that makes me ignorant or in denial (and in denial of what?)

do you think eating shrimp is an abomination? I havent met many christians who think it is. so they should stop using the verse in leviticus to say that homosexuality is wrong. because that's picking and choosing the parts in leviticus to back up their own ideas.

 

[outlaw]

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."(Leviticus 18:22)

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed anabomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."(Leviticus 20:13)

boy talk about denial….