Holiness

[Frogster]

Sin is what makes us enemies of God-preferring ourselves and our own way to Him and His way, so to speak. Scripture tells us that the Law is holy and good and spiritual-but that we're not spiritual-we must come to obey by the Spirit rather than the letter because the Spirit gives life while the letter kills. This is why Pharisees could remain dead in their sins even if outwardly they obeyed the law perfectly. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus holds us to an even higher standard-He tells us that even our hearts must be pure, first of all, not merely our actions.

So it's not a matter of whether or not we must obey the Law-of course God wants us holy-that's how He made us and always intended us to be. It's a matter of how we'll obey the Law, because we'll still be declared righteous by obedience to it, according to Rom 2:13. And to be holy simply means to be wholly who He created us to be, no more, no less. But this is harder than it sounds, of course, and we can't do this so long as we're enemies of God because that's the whole point; man must be united with God-as God and man were united in Jesus, man and God must be united in us-His Spirit dwelling within, in order for us to be holy as He intends. And the enmity that causes the separation from God comes from our side, not His, from our preference for autonomy from Him.

So this is the New Covenant promise in Jer 31, which the writer of Hebrews quotes in chap 8 & 10:

10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]God must do the writing-the righteousness must come from Him rather than from having “ a[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]righteousness of my own that comes from the law”. Phil 3:9
And the righteousness of God is the righteousness that comes from love, and so the way He writes His laws on our hearts and in our minds is by conforming us to His image, which is love, because love fulfills the law according to Rom 13:8&10 and Gal 5:14 In this way He truly becomes the God of man again.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Romans 2:13 was rhetorical, no way would Paul contradict the culminative thought here..otherwise we have a complete contradition in one letter, and to the whole thelogy.


3:20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

 

[fhansen]

Romans 2:13 was rhetorical, no way would Paul contradict the culminative thought here..otherwise we have a complete contradition in one letter, and to the whole thelogy.


3:20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Well, I don't know how Rom 2:13 is rhetorical but in any case I think you miss the point. The Law justifies no one-only God can do so. But when one is just, they're ipso facto obedient to the Law. Love is what justifies a human, that's why the greatest commandment is what it is. And love, of course, fulfills the Law. That is the cumulative thought of the NT, with the Sermon on the Mount taking center stage.

 

[11822]

Sin is what makes us enemies of God-preferring ourselves and our own way to Him and His way, so to speak. Scripture tells us that the Law is holy and good and spiritual-but that we're not spiritual-we must come to obey by the Spirit rather than the letter because the Spirit gives life while the letter kills. This is why Pharisees could remain dead in their sins even if outwardly they obeyed the law perfectly. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus holds us to an even higher standard-He tells us that even our hearts must be pure, first of all, not merely our actions.

So it's not a matter of whether or not we must obey the Law-of course God wants us holy-that's how He made us and always intended us to be. It's a matter of how we'll obey the Law, because we'll still be declared righteous by obedience to it, according to Rom 2:13. And to be holy simply means to be wholly who He created us to be, no more, no less. But this is harder than it sounds, of course, and we can't do this so long as we're enemies of God because that's the whole point; man must be united with God-as God and man were united in Jesus, man and God must be united in us-His Spirit dwelling within, in order for us to be holy as He intends. And the enmity that causes the separation from God comes from our side, not His, from our preference for autonomy from Him.

So this is the New Covenant promise in Jer 31, which the writer of Hebrews quotes in chap 8 & 10:

10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]God must do the writing-the righteousness must come from Him rather than from having “ a[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]righteousness of my own that comes from the law”. Phil 3:9
And the righteousness of God is the righteousness that comes from love, and so the way He writes His laws on our hearts and in our minds is by conforming us to His image, which is love, because love fulfills the law according to Rom 13:8&10 and Gal 5:14 In this way He truly becomes the God of man again.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

I'm in complete agreement. I just don't think obeying the written teaching that the apostles gave us makes us an enemy to the cross. Paul studied from books himself even after he came to Christ and i might assume the other apostles did too. I reject this idea that i cant read and agree that it is good to obey what i read, as long as i accept that i cannot earn salvation through any effort of my own, which is written down by the way. However if at the same time i also decide that only doers of the word belong to Christ and then obey what i read, then i think that is God leading me. What is frogsters problem?

 

[11822]

The truth is that all this supposed grace pushing is really just eroding my resolve to obey what God has told me to obey in His written word. Day after day i read this stuff when i should be reading the apostles teaching me to obey Gods call to grace and holiness together. This is not helping me or others who are obeying God, its not bringing peace and joy, its not teaching holiness or obedience to the apostles teaching, its only creating a big mess. The apostles taught us to obey Gods will, they didn't use grace to war against those who seek to obey Gods will, how could they if they teach us to obey it themselves?. Galatians is not the Gospel, its only part of it. The apostles teach much more.

 

[from scratch]

Sin is what makes us enemies of God-preferring ourselves and our own way to Him and His way, so to speak. Scripture tells us that the Law is holy and good and spiritual-but that we're not spiritual-we must come to obey by the Spirit rather than the letter because the Spirit gives life while the letter kills. This is why Pharisees could remain dead in their sins even if outwardly they obeyed the law perfectly. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus holds us to an even higher standard-He tells us that even our hearts must be pure, first of all, not merely our actions.

So it's not a matter of whether or not we must obey the Law-of course God wants us holy-that's how He made us and always intended us to be. It's a matter of how we'll obey the Law, because we'll still be declared righteous by obedience to it, according to Rom 2:13. And to be holy simply means to be wholly who He created us to be, no more, no less. But this is harder than it sounds, of course, and we can't do this so long as we're enemies of God because that's the whole point; man must be united with God-as God and man were united in Jesus, man and God must be united in us-His Spirit dwelling within, in order for us to be holy as He intends. And the enmity that causes the separation from God comes from our side, not His, from our preference for autonomy from Him.

I highlighted the part I wish to address. Your verse says doer of the law. My question is is this full time doers or part time doers? By that I mean one can't ever violate the law. The Scripture says there is not anyone who has done so. Jesus is the exception to this, but then He is God. See Ps 14:3, 53:3, Isa 64:6 Romans 3:23. This is why we need a Saviour. Righteousness is the gift of God - Rom 6:23, Eph 2:8-9. It is imputed on and to us Rom 4. We over come sin by our testimony (confession) and the blood of the Lamb.

So this is the New Covenant promise in Jer 31, which the writer of Hebrews quotes in chap 8 & 10:

10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

God must do the writing-the righteousness must come from Him rather than from having “ a
righteousness of my own that comes from the law”. Phil 3:9
And the righteousness of God is the righteousness that comes from love, and so the way He writes His laws on our hearts and in our minds is by conforming us to His image, which is love, because love fulfills the law according to Rom 13:8&10 and Gal 5:14 In this way He truly becomes the God of man again.

 

[from scratch]

There is only one way which we may actually be righteous here and now, and that is by receiving the Spirit of God. Everything else is just a fruitless act, and is determined by what it is that you set your affections upon. Do you love God's old laws? That's noble, but why settle for that which is less than God Himself as He has been revealed through the image of Christ?

God is so much greater than the law.

Mat 5:48 tells us to be perfect. This created a problem for me until I understood it meant complete and not flawless. What do you think it means

 

[JRSut1000]

Perfect = complete.

 

[Frogster]

I'm in complete agreement. I just don't think obeying the written teaching that the apostles gave us makes us an enemy to the cross. Paul studied from books himself even after he came to Christ and i might assume the other apostles did too. I reject this idea that i cant read and agree that it is good to obey what i read, as long as i accept that i cannot earn salvation through any effort of my own, which is written down by the way. However if at the same time i also decide that only doers of the word belong to Christ and then obey what i read, then i think that is God leading me. What is frogsters problem?

Frogster has no problem. I did not say enemy, I said understood the cross, when people promote law, as a means of holiness, they don't understand the cross, that is a fact. Again, don't kill anyone today, don't steal, but you never address the "how" of the issue, u just kinda fixate on the do's and don'ts, in a mere elemental fashion, that's ok...no big deal, just offering my in depth analysis.

 

[Frogster]

Well, I don't know how Rom 2:13 is rhetorical but in any case I think you miss the point. The Law justifies no one-only God can do so. But when one is just, they're ipso facto obedient to the Law. Love is what justifies a human, that's why the greatest commandment is what it is. And love, of course, fulfills the Law. That is the cumulative thought of the NT, with the Sermon on the Mount taking center stage.

2:13 was part of a polemic, he was showing the hypocrisy of those who "hear" the law on Sabbath, but don't do it. Basically 1-3 was all about judgment, and hypocrisy of the Jews, etc. Again, otherwise we have a total contradiciton in the letter, and to the whole of the thelogy.

 

[Frogster]

Perfect = complete.

Yes, and there goes law santification, or else we should go to the temple to be reminded of the flesh, that we died to, year after year, time after time...

 

[from scratch]

The truth is that all this supposed grace pushing is really just eroding my resolve to obey what God has told me to obey in His written word. Day after day i read this stuff when i should be reading the apostles teaching me to obey Gods call to grace and holiness together. This is not helping me or others who are obeying God, its not bringing peace and joy, its not teaching holiness or obedience to the apostles teaching, its only creating a big mess. The apostles taught us to obey Gods will, they didn't use grace to war against those who seek to obey Gods will, how could they if they teach us to obey it themselves?. Galatians is not the Gospel, its only part of it. The apostles teach much more.

I'm sorry that you think the way you do. Perhaps you will grow because of this input to your life. You must be getting something from this or you wouldn't be hanging around. I'm kinda interested in what you're getting from your participation.

 

[fhansen]

The truth is that all this supposed grace pushing is really just eroding my resolve to obey what God has told me to obey in His written word. Day after day i read this stuff when i should be reading the apostles teaching me to obey Gods call to grace and holiness together. This is not helping me or others who are obeying God, its not bringing peace and joy, its not teaching holiness or obedience to the apostles teaching, its only creating a big mess. The apostles taught us to obey Gods will, they didn't use grace to war against those who seek to obey Gods will, how could they if they teach us to obey it themselves?. Galatians is not the Gospel, its only part of it. The apostles teach much more.

I think the point is that a balance must exist. Man can't be saved without God-this is absolutely impossible- but God elects to have man participate in his salvation, so that he's not merely a dumb outsider to it all, so that our choices-our wills-are involved. God doesn't save us without us, as it's been said before. Man freely fell, and man must freely rise again, with Gods help, with the grace won at Calvary. There are just too many verses in scripture admonishing us, often with dire consequences if we don't, to persist, persevere, do the right thing, be holy, be perfect, abide in the Spirit, invest our talents, keep oil in our lamps, work out our salvation, put to death the misdeeds of the flesh, perform acts of love for ones neighbors, and to love each other in general to ignore the fact that God considers our salvation a combined effort.

 

[JRSut1000]

I definitely agree with fhansen! Like I said before, we can't be passive about the Christian life. Faith must have works or else that faith is dead. God shows us throughout His Word what it means to follow Him, what it looks like. God both shows us WHAT to do and also HOW to do it.

 

[Frogster]

I think the point is that a balance must exist. Man can't be saved without God-this is absolutely impossible- but God elects to have man participate in his salvation, so that he's not merely a dumb outsider to it all, so that our choices-our wills-are involved. God doesn't save us without us, as it's been said before. Man freely fell, and man must freely rise again, with Gods help, with the grace won at Calvary. There are just too many verses in scripture admonishing us, often with dire consequences if we don't, to persist, persevere, do the right thing, be holy, be perfect, abide in the Spirit, invest our talents, keep oil in our lamps, work out our salvation, put to death the misdeeds of the flesh, perform acts of love for ones neighbors, and to love each other in general to ignore the fact that God considers our salvation a combined effort.

But if we turn this post around, and have this measuring rod, is one living of fear of loosing his salvation? What is the standard every day? Do you see fusion here?

Not only that, actually Hebrews was a warning to leave law, enter into rest, and come into grace, as the dire warning.

 

[JRSut1000]

I really think this argument has been resurrected waaay too many times in the past weeks. We could argue this stuff until we're blue in the face. It's not doing any of us any good. Let's move on and leave it in God's hands to convict and sanctify our understanding of grace and obedience. Enough is enough already. I'm done. This is not edifying in any way, except maybe to self - which in reality, is not glorifying to God.

 

[from scratch]

We don't just sit back and do nothing. What kind of faith is that? We all know that faith without works is dead.

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. -II Corin 7:1

Holiness means saying NO to that sin or temptation, it means saying YES to what He told us to do. These are actions, not passivity. Holiness is in no way passive. Christ made the way clean for us, gave us a new slate. But in Him and through the Holy Spirit, we are then enabled to please God.

Hey I agree holiness is saying no to sin. So did you take a fresh backed pie over to that neighbor you suspected teepeed your place last night? What did you do for the kid who wacked your mail box? Or the neighbor that shoots at your dog after enticing it with uneaten food? I know you took him a gallon of Haagen dazs ice cream with that warm apple pie. I just know you did that.

Naw you probably think jumping on him for not observing your religious day is the way to make friends and heap coals on his head.

In a way obedience to much of the law is passive because it mostly is thou shalt not. In fact the only positive statement of the 10 Cs is the 4th. So by your thinking holiness isn't active but passive. My wager is that you're infact not doing any of the kind of stuff James calls the works we're called to do.

So what I'm trying to get at is what are these positive active actions of holiness you're talking about.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, of course. But that is something that rests entirely upon promise and God's ability to fulfill it. Experiencing it is something else entirely.

Well it rests on the fact that God already made the saint holy . a saint is holy . once you start making requirements for being holy . you start making requirements for being a saint .

 

[JRSut1000]

That's really unfair to skip to the assumption that because my husband and I believe that grace and obeying God are compatible, then we must be really mean people.

We DID just take over brownies to BOTH our neighbors just a few days ago. We don't slam our neighbors with the Bible. If they ask, we talk (in few words) and if they ask more, we continue. And if not, we just talk normal everyday stuff. And I returned a stray dog to it's owner, even though it was semi-inconvenient. I took joy in it. I'm not bragging, but I'm merely saying that obeying God fully isn't a burden, with His Spirit there is joy, love, and a willingness to obey cheerfully!

Wow, that's so rude to assume we aren't loving.

By the way, there is room for love in the Law of God. It is the Law that talks about being kind to the stranger. It is the law that leaves room for the poor to have food.

Look at Deut 10:16-18 Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing.

That doesn't look like legalism and meanness to me!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That's really unfair to skip to the assumption that because my husband and I believe that grace and obeying God are compatible, then we must be really mean people.

We DID just take over brownies to BOTH our neighbors just a few days ago. We don't slam our neighbors with the Bible. If they ask, we talk (in few words) and if they ask more, we continue. And if not, we just talk normal everyday stuff.

Wow, that's so rude to assume we aren't loving.

By the way, there is room for love in the Law of God. It is the Law that talks about being kind to the stranger. It is the law that leaves room for the poor to have food.

Look at Deut 10:16-18 Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing.

That doesn't look like legalism and meanness to me!

Except when people disagree with you, then the love isn't so warm now is it?

 

[JRSut1000]

I've never made it personal as such as been done to me. I discuss the issues, I don't jump on the person.