Holiness

[from scratch]

Yes, but I took his statement to mean that, because he doesn't want to sin, he shouldn't need to be concerned with the law. And this is true, so long as he never wants to sin. If, on the other hand we just decide we can't be perfect or sinless anyway, then I guess it doesn't really matter whether or not we want to sin. So I think the question is, should we be concerned if we sin, or not? And this is the same as saying, should we care what the law says, or not?

Wrong words. I didn't say anything about not wanting to sin. I said I have no desire to sin. since I have no desire to sin, what value is it to me to be told thou shalt not when I have no desire. Since I have no desire and you say you shalt not.... I must inquire what follows not is. Now I know what stealing is. The concept isn't foriegn to me. I'm trying to communicate something here. So get your mind off of the sin and think about the principle of motivation and desire.

 

[from scratch]

Christians don't become perfect and lose all desire to sin, the more we abide in Christ the more we become like him maybe and sin less, but sinless is not possible, only in the Context of Gods grace is that possible, but we still have a duty to try for perfection and not allow grace to be our excuse to sin, that's why i think Paul said "shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? Nay, God forbid."

We forsake evil and embrace obedience to love and holiness instead because that's Gods will and we want to love God with our whole mind, heart and soul. And obedience is a way we show our love to God i think, and he loves us back and gives grace for our failures, we trust him and seek to be obedient in love for him and our neighbor and seek after holiness, humility, love and all that good stuff through effort and prayer, because its His will and he knows best.

Yes and your obedience is to God through the law. I say no and so does Gal 5:18. Abraham and Noah obeyed God before the law. Now you say we can't do that. Why? The law is over because the Seed has come - Gal 3:19. That isn't the only testimony of Scripture that the law is over either. See LK 16:16 and Rom 10:4.

 

[from scratch]

I just have to ask... how come there is encourage or support for those who do things that are we know are GOD calls unholy

Who is doing that here? I'm a NC person. There is no such thing as an OC Christian.

 

[from scratch]

We should focus on what God tells us to in the written word and allow our conscience to direct us. Right now my conscience is telling me to not let you aggravate me.

that is going to be adifficult taks for you. No it isn't my intention to aggravate you. That also doesn't mean I'll qut posting either.

 

[fhansen]

Wrong words. I didn't say anything abou not wanting to sin. I said I have no desire to sin. since I have no desire to sin, what value is it to me to be told thou shalt not when I have no desire. Since I have no desire an you say you shalt not.... I must inquire what follows not is. Now I know what stealing is. The concept isn't foriegn to me. I'm trying to communicate something here. So get your mind off of the sin and think about the principle of motivation and desire.

The law is a guidepost, pointing out our sin. But aren’t you basically saying you have no sin? –that you’ve arrived, so to speak, and are led by the Spirit continuously? Do you really mean to say that? I mean, the opposite of sin is love. Are you so sold out to love that you never sin? I mean, are you saying that it doesn't matter if you sin, since you're forgiven and living under grace, or that you don't sin?

Grace and the love of God have been equated to each other by some theologians, FWIW.

 

[Frogster]

Leviticus 10:10
And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;


1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

It's right there in your quote. Paul just got done telling Tim, to get the law people away from the church, and the law is not for the church....

7desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

 

[cubinity]

The law is like google maps.
I'm not going to sit at my computer and scroll through the street views of Eastern Europe and then go out and tell people I've been vacationing there.
That would just be sad.
If I don't get the real thing, then I'm not going to claim I got the real thing.
Well, Jesus is the real thing, and the law was just a map.
Thus, I'm simply not content with the law.
I need Jesus. I need the real thing.

 

[Nanopants]

The law is like google maps.
I'm not going to sit at my computer and scroll through the street views of Eastern Europe and then go out and tell people I've been vacationing there.
That would just be sad.
If I don't get the real thing, then I'm not going to claim I got the real thing.
Well, Jesus is the real thing, and the law was just a map.
Thus, I'm simply not content with the law.
I need Jesus. I need the real thing.

 

[Frogster]

The law is supposed to be a reflection of our conscience, which is supposed to have Gods' law already written in it, but darkened and obscured by sin.The two, law and conscience, should compliment each other. Our minds should recognize and be awakened by Gods' law when we we hear it because it resonates with our consciences.

Well..the only problem is, we got Rom 7, where sin was aroused by law, and 6:14 says sin will not have dominion, so long as we are not under law, then we got Rom 3:20, that does indeed show the law to give a consciousness of sin in our unsaved state, as it's intention, which we don't want after salvation, according to Hebrews. 9:14 and 10:22, 10:1-4.

So bottom line, lets stay away from law, it did it's part, now we can live resurrected with Jesus, who also died to law.

There is a connection to sin, and law.

 

[Frogster]

The law is a guidepost, pointing out our sin. But aren’t you basically saying you have no sin? –that you’ve arrived, so to speak, and are led by the Spirit continuously? Do you really mean to say that? I mean, the opposite of sin is love. Are you so sold out to love that you never sin? I mean, are you saying that it doesn't matter if you sin, since you're forgiven and living under grace, or that you don't sin?

Grace and the love of God have been equated to each other by some theologians, FWIW.

Welp..it does say 3 times in Romans 6, we are freed from sin, and that in it's highest truth, is attained, because we are raised with Christ, and are in Him, and there is no sin in Him, Rom 6. We were in Adam, now we are in the reign of Christ, Rom 5:21. I know it is hard to believe, even as I type, but Paul wanted the ephesians to understand all this, we have a great inheritance, that transcends sin and flesh...

 

[Frogster]

We have been made Holy, Heb 10:10, and 10:14, also him who knew no sin....



20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Frogster]

If we weren't made Holy, there would still have to be more sacrifices.


Heb 10:17then he adds,

"I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
18Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

 

[ForceofTime]

Well..the only problem is, we got Rom 7, where sin was aroused by law, and 6:14 says sin will not have dominion, so long as we are not under law, then we got Rom 3:20, that does indeed show the law to give a consciousness of sin in our unsaved state, as it's intention, which we don't want after salvation, according to Hebrews. 9:14 and 10:22, 10:1-4.

So bottom line, lets stay away from law, it did it's part, now we can live resurrected with Jesus, who also died to law.

There is a connection to sin, and law.

The problem with that is it sounds as if we must not only abandon law, but also holiness along with it. If we stay away from this law:

Romans 7:12 KJV Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

then really we are also staying away from holiness.

I know you are not saying/promoting this at all, Frogster! I just point it out because, when looking at it prima facie, I find it a very difficult thing to fathom; that I must, as a Christian, throw out a holy law, which Paul himself says he serves in Rom. 7:25.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The problem with that is it sounds as if we must not only abandon law, but also holiness along with it. If we stay away from this law:

Romans 7:12 KJV Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

then really we are also staying away from holiness.

I know you are not saying/promoting this at all, Frogster! I just point it out because, when looking at it prima facie, I find it a very difficult thing to fathom; that I must, as a Christian, throw out a holy law, which Paul himself says he serves in Rom. 7:25.

yet elsewhere it is called a commandment according to men's principles .

Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. (Colossians 2:20-22)

 

[fhansen]

Welp..it does say 3 times in Romans 6, we are freed from sin, and that in it's highest truth, is attained, because we are raised with Christ, and are in Him, and there is no sin in Him, Rom 6. We were in Adam, now we are in the reign of Christ, Rom 5:21. I know it is hard to believe, even as I type, but Paul wanted the ephesians to understand all this, we have a great inheritance, that transcends sin and flesh...

So free from sin means you don't sin, or that it's not counted against you?

 

[visionary]

We have been made Holy, Heb 10:10, and 10:14, also him who knew no sin....



20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Have to get "in Him" right..to even come close to "might become".

 

[visionary]

Exactly. It's for people who know not the way: those who remain in their sins.

Exactly.. it is a state of being that the Lord has identified and with His descriptions we can discern the difference.

 

[Frogster]

The problem with that is it sounds as if we must not only abandon law, but also holiness along with it. If we stay away from this law:

Romans 7:12 KJV Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

then really we are also staying away from holiness.

I know you are not saying/promoting this at all, Frogster! I just point it out because, when looking at it prima facie, I find it a very difficult thing to fathom; that I must, as a Christian, throw out a holy law, which Paul himself says he serves in Rom. 7:25.

The whole point of 7, was that the law aroused sin, look how it was dead, apart from law. It is all for a higher good, so that man would die to the flesh, where sin operates in the flesh.


8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

 

[Frogster]

So free from sin means you don't sin, or that it's not counted against you?

Can God tug on one, who is heading off course in life? Yes..good, but the whole point is, that God is not keeping a tally sheeet, that's the whole point of the New cov, under the old, heb 2;2, says every transgression received it's punisment.

We have been made Holy, one sacrifice, if not, there would have to be sacrifices again, and Christ will have to be sacrificed again, according to Hebrews. The whole point was, that the old system, actually kept reminding of sins, to which the writer teaches us, that is not what God wants.

12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

 

[Frogster]

Have to get "in Him" right..to even come close to "might become".

Then are you saying that the righteousness, that Christ gave us, His righteousness, was not complete? It was an exchange. Peter said it too, the just, for the unjust in 1 Peter 3:18.